killing in the military

[Bishopite]

[koda]That still doesn’t make the deaths of innocent civilians okay -nor does it change the fact that it still happens. And I’ve heard Iraq vets say that they knowingly kill civilians (i.e., bombing a building housing a sniper and a number of innocent civilians - they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time).

If colladeral damage occurs even though the specific intent is to take out and kill the enemy ISN’T a sin; it is an unfortunate effect of war. No US military soldier is intentionally trying to kill innocent civilians. We now have more than 2000 deaths of US soldiers in Iraq. Did you know that 1000 soldiers died just training for D-day?

Of the 2,400,000-plus Americans who die each year, over 45,000 are killed in transport accidents. The number of homicides, poisonings, and drunk driving fatalities are roughly the same, at around 17,000 each. Perhaps more surprisingly, a stunning 178,000 Americans die from medical or hospital error every year.
Perhaps this should put the 2000 Iraq deaths in perspective.

I’d like to see our troops safe at home with their families. I don’t think it is patriotic for them to have to die in what I and millions of others feel is an unjust war. Yet, I get accused of not supporting our troops. The folks who think it’s a great idea to send them to die in for any cause the Admin. deems appropriate, regardless of its true nature, are the ones who do the supporting. Seems backwards to me.

We would all like to see the troops back home safe with their families, but unfortunately we don’t live in a barney the purple dinosaur world, so we continue to struggle and as Catholics we should be well aware of penance, struggle and self-sacrifice. I give praise to those troops who give such self-sacrifice as to allow us to continue to be free

“No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends”-- John 15:13

 

[777]

vern humphrey:

We believe in Holy Roman Catholic Church and follow her teaching.

“They say we must fight to save our freedom, but Lord knows there’s got to be a better way. War: what is it good for? Absolutely nuttin’.”

–Norman Whitfield & Barret Strong, 1970.

 

[vern_humphrey]

“They say we must fight to save our freedom, but Lord knows there’s got to be a better way. War: what is it good for? Absolutely nuttin’.”

–Norman Whitfield & Barret Strong, 1970.

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

– Julia Ward Howe, 1861

 

[dbacks5439]

Hey thanks you guys for the comments! this is what makes Catholicism truly great and separates us from the protestants. even tho we each have our own interpretation of the bible, we have the Magisterium to set the tone for us. if you go up to a protestant and ask a question about the bible, they’d say something like, “I believe…” whereas we would reply, “We believe”. see the difference? We are united in One Body of Christ. that is why we have been around for 2,000 years! tell me what institution has ever lasted that long? that is amazing!

 

[estesbob]

“They say we must fight to save our freedom, but Lord knows there’s got to be a better way. War: what is it good for? Absolutely nuttin’.”

–Norman Whitfield & Barret Strong, 1970.

Tell tht to the Jews who were freed from the Nazi death camps in 1945

I am pleased to see you are no longer trying to back up your position with cherry picked scripture quotes.

 

[777]

vern humphrey:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

– Julia Ward Howe, 1861

“For we fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities.”
–Ephesians

 

[vern_humphrey]

“For we fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities.”
–Ephesians

You betcha – and today we fight against fanatical terrorists, whose mode of war is to attack the innocent in the most grisly manner.

 

[777]

“Fighting produces nuttin’. It only results in devistation and destruction.” --Lynn Kyle, Robotech, 1985

God is with us and he will take away all tears, and there will be no more war. Neihter will there be any death." --St. John, the devine

 

[TOME]

First, to Tamccrackine, and through you all who serve our country honorably and to their families, a personal and heartfelt thanks and a promise of my continued prayers.

I originally was about to make several statement but now I rather like to pose a couple of questions (realizing they may end up being more rhetorical in nature, but I hope not).

St Thomas Aquinas, building on the teachings of St Augustine, and ST Augustine himself, provided the Catholic Church with a strong moral foundation from which to base our answers for this thread. A question is, how many of us are familiar with and have applied their principles what making a judgment on the morality of our present conflict?

War, being a human action, is far from a perfect solution (how’s that for an understatement?) and history has proven has never been fought with out many blantant evils occuring, but can a war ever be justified? And how? How familiar are we with the principles of Self Defense? How can these principles be applied to our present situation in Iraq? Should Iraq be looked at as an isolated event of is it part of something bigger? In Iraq and through out the Middle East and the world, should we focus on only the armed conflict involved or are there other parts that must be applied when considering the Justness of our Nation’s actions?

I know Pope John Paul II came under some criticism on his position prior to the start of our military involvement in Iraq, but from what I read he posed similar question to President Bush not out of condemnation rather out of love that our President seriously consider all aspects of his decisions. I am not trying to equate myself with John Paul (The Great) rather I am here just trying to
his example as a guideline for my own thought process in making a moral evaluation about “Killing in the Military”.

 

[tamccrackine]

TOME:

First, to Tamccrackine, and through you all who serve our country honorably and to their families, a personal and heartfelt thanks and a promise of my continued prayers.

I originally was about to make several statement but now I rather like to pose a couple of questions (realizing they may end up being more rhetorical in nature, but I hope not).

St Thomas Aquinas, building on the teachings of St Augustine, and ST Augustine himself, provided the Catholic Church with a strong moral foundation from which to base our answers for this thread. A question is, how many of us are familiar with and have applied their principles what making a judgment on the morality of our present conflict?

War, being a human action, is far from a perfect solution (how’s that for an understatement?) and history has proven has never been fought with out many blantant evils occuring, but can a war ever be justified? And how? How familiar are we with the principles of Self Defense? How can these principles be applied to our present situation in Iraq? Should Iraq be looked at as an isolated event of is it part of something bigger? In Iraq and through out the Middle East and the world, should we focus on only the armed conflict involved or are there other parts that must be applied when considering the Justness of our Nation’s actions?

I know Pope John Paul II came under some criticism on his position prior to the start of our military involvement in Iraq, but from what I read he posed similar question to President Bush not out of condemnation rather out of love that our President seriously consider all aspects of his decisions. I am not trying to equate myself with John Paul (The Great) rather I am here just trying to
his example as a guideline for my own thought process in making a moral evaluation about “Killing in the Military”.

Thank you for your position of supporting our military.

Can a war be justified? I don’t think we, in our human understanding and failings, can get an honest answer for that question because there will always be at least ONE thing wrong with that justification to someone. So we use our resources, and in some cases- power, whether it’s military or governmentally- to correct what we, as a nation see as a wrong. I can only assess that is what is meant by “Majority rules.”

We, meaning the US, uses money in many areas to help other countries in need. Does it stop that country from slapping or biting the hand that feeds it? We tried isolationalism back in the early 1900’s and it still drew us into WWI. We tried to stay out of WWII, but we still got drawn in. Why? Not just because we were attacked, but because one power was using that power in a harmful manner to another citizen.

I hope I made some sense… You make the comment about your question being rhetorical but I see it as rhetorical as the question “Is stealing alright in some cases?” (example… natural disaster and you have young mouths to feed and you see looting going on at a store and you go in and steal bread and water) I honestly believe it’s what you do after that war that helps too… we rebuilt both Japan and Germany after WWII… we are rebuilding Iraq (I know, it’s not seen in the news alot)…

ok… I’m going on and on…

 

[dhgray]

NO ONE HATES WAR MORE THAN THE MILITARY!

I know many will argue with that statement. However, think about it;

1. We get shot at
2. We get pulled away from our families
3. We get shot at
   and did I mention
4. We get shot at!

But we do what many in this work are unable to do, fight for the rights of others and we don’t ask for much. Many get paid as little as $200 per week. SO instead of whining why don’t you either step up and join the fight or sit down and shut up. Either way, I am following the teaching of Jesus when he said, “The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matt 22:39). My neighbor is 1/2 around the world being killed and forced to worship false gods. How Christian is it of you to sit here and do nothing except complain about those who are doing the work?

 

[vern_humphrey]

NO ONE HATES WAR MORE THAN THE MILITARY!

I know many will argue with that statement. However, think about it;

1. We get shot at
2. We get pulled away from our families
3. We get shot at
   and did I mention
4. We get shot at!

But we do what many in this work are unable to do, fight for the rights of others and we don’t ask for much. Many get paid as little as $200 per week. SO instead of whining why don’t you either step up and join the fight or sit down and shut up. Either way, I am following the teaching of Jesus when he said, “The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matt 22:39). My neighbor is 1/2 around the world being killed and forced to worship false gods. How Christian is it of you to sit here and do nothing except complain about those who are doing the work?

You forgot to add:

1. We get spit on.
2. We get called names.
3. People seek out our pregnant wives and say hateful things to make them cry.
4. People make insinuations to the effect that we lie.

 

[dhgray]

It is the Soldier,
not the reporter who has given us freedom of press

**It is the Soldier,
not the poet who has given us freedom of speech

It is the Soldier,
not the campus organizer who gives us freedom to demonstrate

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
who serves beneath the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
**

 

[777]

NO ONE HATES WAR MORE THAN THE MILITARY!

I know many will argue with that statement. However, think about it;

1. We get shot at
2. We get pulled away from our families
3. We get shot at
   and did I mention
4. We get shot at!

But we do what many in this work are unable to do, fight for the rights of others and we don’t ask for much. Many get paid as little as $200 per week. SO instead of whining why don’t you either step up and join the fight or sit down and shut up. Either way, I am following the teaching of Jesus when he said, “The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matt 22:39). My neighbor is 1/2 around the world being killed and forced to worship false gods. How Christian is it of you to sit here and do nothing except complain about those who are doing the work?

Well said, indeed!! Kudos!!

 

[777]

TOME:

First, to Tamccrackine, and through you all who serve the nation honorably and to their families, a personal and heartfelt thanks and a promise of my continued prayers.

I originally was about to make several statement but now I rather like to pose a couple of questions (realizing they may end up being more rhetorical in nature, but I hope not).

St Thomas Aquinas, building on the teachings of St Augustine, and ST Augustine himself, provided the Catholic Church with a strong moral foundation from which to base our answers for this thread. A question is, how many of us are familiar with and have applied their principles what making a judgment on the morality of our present conflict?

War, being a human action, is far from a perfect solution (how’s that for an understatement?) and history has proven has never been fought with out many blantant evils occuring, but can a war ever be justified? And how? How familiar are we with the principles of Self Defense? How can these principles be applied to our present situation in Iraq? Should Iraq be looked at as an isolated event of is it part of something bigger? In Iraq and through out the Middle East and the world, should we focus on only the armed conflict involved or are there other parts that must be applied when considering the Justness of our Nation’s actions?

I know Pope John Paul II came under some criticism on his position prior to the start of our military involvement in Iraq, but from what I read he posed similar question to President Bush not out of condemnation rather out of love that our President seriously consider all aspects of his decisions. I am not trying to equate myself with John Paul (The Great) rather I am here just trying to
his example as a guideline for my own thought process in making a moral evaluation about “Killing in the Military”.

Kudos!! That was well said!!

 

[777]

estesbob:

Tell tht to the Jews who were freed from the Nazi death camps in 1945

I am pleased to see you are no longer trying to back up your position with cherry picked scripture quotes.

“All we’re saying, is give peace a chance.”

–John Lennon, 1969

 

[dhgray]

“All we’re saying, is give peace a chance.”

–John Lennon, 1969

and he was murdered…

 

[777]

dhgray:

and he was murdered…

…but he died a martyr for his beliefs.

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

…but he died a martyr for his beliefs.

You have got to be kidding!

 

[Sir_Knight]

777:

…but he died a martyr for his beliefs.

What beliefs?