killing in the military

[dhgray]

koda:

That still doesn’t make the deaths of innocent civilians okay -nor does it change the fact that it still happens.

innocent deaths are never okay

And I’ve heard Iraq vets say that they knowingly kill civilians (i.e., bombing a building housing a sniper and a number of innocent civilians - they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time).

but you fail to mention all the lives we have saved.

Nor is every soldier the John Wayne type you mention - a fact that has actually made it to the press.

did you read it in the paper or listen to a 3 second sound bite. Either way, the press is against the war and will NEVER give it fair coverage. However, Nightline did s decent job of covering the struggles last night.

War is simply a bad thing.

we all agree on that!

IMO, this war in particular is very unjust

I wonder is you asked an Iraq citizen who voted for the first time in his or her life; who is able to open a store or speak out without fear of being killed by Husane; Ask the Kurds who has mustard gas poured on them how unjust this war is.

(I’m sure you are familiar with the reasons why many of us feel this way so I’ll avoid the issue here).

because it is easier for you to sit back, listen to the liberal controlled news and complain rather than trying to understand what is really hapening

How many is too many for you? 1? 1,000?

that depends, would you want me to stop if your life were on the line? If someone was pouring mustard gas on your and your neighbors?

Perhaps we should go back to the old type of warfare - get all the troops on both sides, line them up and let them kill each other.

would be easier. how about starting up the draft again.

Leave the civilians and the infrastructure they need to survive out of it.

we’d love to but what do you do when the enemy is hiding in schools and hospitals? wait until they run out of bullets? IF THE IRAQES had dealt with this in the first place, the US Military would have never gotten involved.

I’d like to see our troops safe at home with their families.

so would I

I don’t think it is patriotic for them to have to die in what I and millions of others feel is an unjust war.

I’m glad we are running this war on by opinion polls.

Yet, I get accused of not supporting our troops. The folks who think it’s a great idea to send them to die in for any cause the Admin. deems appropriate, regardless of its true nature, are the ones who do the supporting. Seems backwards to me.

I believe you do support the troops, it’s the war you have problems with and that’s okay. I gave 22 years of my life so you could speak out.
God Bless you.

 

[777]

What of St. Francis Of Assisi? He ditched his role as a soldier to be a priest and form his order of the Fransciscans.

 

[Sir_Knight]

koda:

I don’t think it is patriotic for them to have to die in what I and millions of others feel is an unjust war.

And what would you consider a “just” war. Japan bombed us in 1941 killing 1000+ Americans and the enter country was in support of us going to war against them. 3000+ Americans lose their lives on 9/11 and millions of people think we should just let it slide. Try telling that to someone who lost a loved one on that day. Explain to them how the war is unjust. Explain to a young widow who lost her husband and her children who lost their father that we should not go after the people who killed their father & husband. How we should let them run free so that they can do a similiar act in the future.

 

[777]

Sir Knight:

And what would you consider a “just” war. Japan bombed us in 1941 killing 1000+ Americans and the enter country was in support of us going to war against them. 3000+ Americans lose their lives on 9/11 and millions of people think we should just let it slide. Try telling that to someone who lost a loved one on that day. Explain to them how the war is unjust. Explain to a young widow who lost her husband and her children who lost their father that we should not go after the people who killed their father & husband. How we should let them run free so that they can do a similiar act in the future.

With all due respect, even a just war can’t bring the victims and casualties back.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sir Knight:

And what would you consider a “just” war. Japan bombed us in 1941 killing 1000+ Americans and the enter country was in support of us going to war against them. 3000+ Americans lose their lives on 9/11 and millions of people think we should just let it slide. Try telling that to someone who lost a loved one on that day. Explain to them how the war is unjust. Explain to a young widow who lost her husband and her children who lost their father that we should not go after the people who killed their father & husband. How we should let them run free so that they can do a similiar act in the future.

I was in New York visiting my youngest daughter when they opened Ground Zero to the public – you could walk by, and see the wreckage down the cross-street. People were drifting down the street, looking and going on so others could look.

Just in front of us was an older man carrying a very young child, with a young woman – obviously the child’s mother. There was a firehouse on that street, with a sheet of plywood with the pictures of the men of that fire house who had died on 9/11.

As they passed, the man held the child up and said, “That’s your father.”

No one who saw and heard that could quarrel with Paragraph 2310 of the Catechism:

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense. Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

With all due respect, even a just war can’t bring the victims and casualties back.

The point of just war is to prevent even more killing. Do you think if we’d surrendered to Nazi Germany, they would have immediately shut down the death camps?

Do you think the Japanese would have suspended their equally brutal and deadly oppressions in China?

 

[Sir_Knight]

777:

What of St. Francis Of Assisi? He ditched his role as a soldier to be a priest and form his order of the Fransciscans.

What about St. Gabriel Possenti who used a pistol to defend the village his seminary was located in from marauding Garibaldi soldiers?

 

[777]

Sir Knight:

What about St. Gabriel Possenti who used a pistol to defend the village his seminary was located in from marauding Garibaldi soldiers?

Then did St. Paul and the apostles fight back when they were earmarked for red martyrdom?

 

[estesbob]

777:

What of St. Francis Of Assisi? He ditched his role as a soldier to be a priest and form his order of the Fransciscans.

First off i want to let you know I accept your apology and explantion about your military in the service of Satan post. all of us can recall being too quick to hit the enter key in the heat of a debate.

I dont diagree with you about Franics of assissi or the fact winning wars doint bring casualties back or any number of posts you have made showng that we are a religion that values peace, Where we part company is your seeming assertion that it is never correct to use force or to kill to defend yourself. That runs contrary to the teachings of our Church, Scripture and quite frankly common sense.

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

Then did St. Paul and the apostles fight back when they were earmarked for red martyrdom?

Refresh my memory. In which war were Saint Paul and the Apostles martyred?

Saint Paul and the Apostles submitted to the legal government. And we must do the same if the government calls on us to defend the nation.

 

[777]

vern humphrey:

Refresh my memory. In which war were Saint Paul and the Apostles martyred?

Saint Paul and the Apostles submitted to the legal government. And we must do the same if the government calls on us to defend the nation.

I’d say the war twixt God and Satan.

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

I’d say the war twixt God and Satan.

What did I tell you about playing the fool?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[777]

Whatever. All i know is, from what i see in the news, is that not everyone believes in a just war. Neither did Gandhi.

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

Whatever. All i know is, from what i see in the news, is that not everyone believes in a just war.

But the Catholic Church not only does accept the just war concept but says leaders have a right and a duty to call upon citizens to serve as needed.

Now, do you accept the Magisterium or reject it?

777:

Neither did Gandhi.

I was not aware that Ghandi was a Catholic Bishop.

If you’re going to look to a Hindu as morally superior to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, you might ask yourself if you’re still a Catholic.

 

[777]

I didn’t say i rejected the magisterium. That be the last thing I’d want. All i was saying was not everyone agreed with viewpoints like yours. Just that.

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

I didn’t say i rejected the magisterium. That be the last thing I’d want. All i was saying was not everyone agreed with viewpoints like yours. Just that.

The Just War Doctrine is not my viewpoint. It is the viewpoint of the Magisterium. See paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The duty of officials to call upon citizens to serve is not my viewpoint. It is the viewpoint of the Magisterium. See paragraph 2310 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Do you accept the viewpoint of the Magisterium?

 

[777]

vern humphrey:

The Just War Doctrine is not my viewpoint. It is the viewpoint of the Magisterium. See paragraph 2309 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The duty of officials to call upon citizens to serve is not my viewpoint. It is the viewpoint of the Magisterium. See paragraph 2310 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Do you accept the viewpoint of the Magisterium?

Fine then.

 

[777]

So much for a person’s rights. Can’t anyone understand me? Or anyone else? P.S.: to all of you here, just do what you want or believe in…

 

[vern_humphrey]

777:

So much for a person’s rights. Can’t anyone understand me? Or anyone else? P.S.: to all of you here, just do what you want or believe in…

We believe in Holy Mother Church and follow her teaching.

 

[Bishopite]

tamccrackine:

Very admirable of your son to still want to serve and then do a double duty of being a medic! My father is in the Army, I’m in the Army, my husband is in the Army (and heading to Iraq in January) and my brother is in the Navy.

Soldiers are used to serve and protect… not just wage war and believe me… it’s not like our soldiers are blatantly killing. Any soldier that has killed can tell you that it’s really simple… “kill or be killed.” yet it’s a rough decision on their conscious. It’s a survival technique at that point. Our soldiers are nearly forced to take the moral high road so they don’t sink into animalistic behaviors like some of our adversaries have. That’s a hard road to take when you just want to exact revenge for your buddy’s death or you’ve just watch a terrorist blow up a car near a school full of children.

So please… don’t tell a soldier the jive that they are sinning by breaking the “thou shall not kill” commandment. I’m a devout Catholic and I look to St. Thomas of Aquinas for guidance for my spiritual and mental wellbeing in our time of war. I don’t need someone telling me that I’m misunderstanding “thou shall not kill.”

If it’s that important… thou shall not kill also doesn’t specify what you shall not kill so if you just ate a hamburger, I guess you were an accessory to murder by killing a cow.

Thank you for serving and for your sacrifice for us. I am grateful to every person in the Military and will say a prayer for you and your family. I grew up in the Air Force and can still remember my father leaving during Vietnam for Thailand for one year. My mother managed the family until he returned and my father eventually retired from the Air Force.

I found this question answer site for Catholics in the Military. Here is a priest answering a soldiers question wanting to know if he broke the fifth commandment after killing a terrorist in Iraq.

The 5th commandment does not outlaw all killing. Hebrew actually has two seperate words for killing. One refers to a “justified killing” and the other to “sinful killing” which we often call “murder”.
A civil authority not only has the right but the grave obligation to order a just war (which always involves killing) when it is necessary for the protection of its people and the preservation of the common good (See the Catechism of the Catholic Church - [CCC] 2265). Jesus makes it clear that the state has this authority when he tells Pilate that he has “authority from above” (John 19:11) to order his death.

So long as he is not commiting a gravely sinful act, such as carrying out orders that command genocide (CCC 2313), a soldier, sworn to serve his country does not sin while fulfilling his oath. Whether or not the taking of a life or a war is just in the first place is determined by the civil authority who is answerable to God, not the soldier (CCC 2309). (Tangent: In this case I believe we have a very just war.)

For your part, take the words of the Catechism to heart: “Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace” (CCC 2310).

Many canonized Catholic Saints served their countries as soldiers. Do your job in full freedom of conscience.

I think that says it all.