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koda
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Modern warfare by its very nature is unable to avoid collateral casualties, in some cases large numbers of them. IMO, there is no way to justify such killing.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello dhgray,
So as long as it is not you in a Nazi concentration camp, your not going to fight. As long as it is not you on a school playground being killed by some waco, you are not going to protect. As long as it is not you under suffering the atrocities of Milocivich, you are not going to kill to protect the innnocent. If it is you, then kill away. Is this your understanding of being a Christian?
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Grunch,
No one is forcing you to stay here, read posts, post etc. Thanks to our American military and their sacrifice, you are free to leave this thread at any time.
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estesbob
Guest
There seems to be a pattern here-you make posts that are easily refuted and then you ask for the thread to be closed. You can close it anytime you want-just quit repsonding.
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koda
Guest
There is one thing that is not easy to refute: there are those of us who simply do not believe that war is a Christian value, who do not believe in taking the life of another. In my own case, I have read opinions from those on both sides and I realize that we can go back and forth on the “just” war theory until doomsday. The Church recognizes and respects this opinion, thus the support of conscientious objectors. See below for more info on Church support of CO status. Please grant us this same respect and stop belitting our beliefs in peace.
usccb.org/sdwp/peace/objector.htm
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vern_humphrey
Guest
If that were the case, the Pope and Bishops abandoned the teaching of Christ and committed a mortal sin.
The Church does not establish its doctrine " just to appease the goverments and all the secular."
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777
Guest
Steven Merten:
The American (and the rest of the world) military is no-one’s but Satan’s.
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777
Guest
vern humphrey:
You think so?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Do you accuse the Pope and bishops?
Do you reject their teaching?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
People, People, People!
If you are going to argue this on the basis of the fifth commandment about not killing, you need to realize that the bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person.” Which is entirely different from not killing. God ORDERED the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). If killing is wrong in God’s eyes, He would have never COMMANDED people to be put to death for certain actions.
If you are going to argue this on the basis that Jesus told us to love our enemies, then you also need to reconcile the following three points:
If you are going to argue this on the basis of the fifth commandment about not killing, you need to realize that the bible actually says, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). The Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person.” Which is entirely different from not killing. God ORDERED the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12; 21:15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). If killing is wrong in God’s eyes, He would have never COMMANDED people to be put to death for certain actions.
If you are going to argue this on the basis that Jesus told us to love our enemies, then you also need to reconcile the following three points:
- *] First, Jesus was ALWAYS in PERFECT AGREEMENT with His heavenly Father on ALL things (John 10:30).
*] Jesus’s Father ORDERED the Israelites to take VENGEANCE against those that caused them harm (Numbers 31:2) COMMANDING them to GO TO WAR (1 Samuel 15:3 & Joshua 4:13) to such an extent that they KILLED every last man, woman & child (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).
*] Whether these actions happened in the OT or NT have no bearing for scripture tells us that God does not change (Malachi 3:6 & James 1:17) and what God declares to be right, is always right and what God declares to be wrong is always wrong.
If God orders people to go to war, kill and take vengeance on others, then those actions HAVE TO BE right in God’s eyes otherwise He would have never told the Israelites to perform those actions.
So, unless someone can dispute the above points, the conclusion is that God is not against killing in all circumstances, but rather only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people , war is inevitable (Romans 3:10-18). Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm is by going to war with them.
777:
Is that why the New Testament praises Centurions (officers in charge of one hundred soldiers) as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16)? Strange how the Word of God would praise those in Satan’s military. How do you explain that?
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777
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Sir Knight:
St paul said do not love the world, and the military is part of the world.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
That’s nice but taken out of context just like you taken most everything else out of context. And how do I know that you, and not I, are taking things out of context? Because your opinions (specifically on this matter) do not agree with the official teachings of the Catholic faith as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the bible tells us that only the church is assured of interperting scripture correctly. So, if your opinion differs from that of which is taught by the Catholic faith, then your opinion is wrong.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Our mothers are part of the world, too. Do we not love them?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
vern humphrey, he’s trying to shift the arguement because he can’t defend his position. He made a statement saying that all the world’s military belong to Satan. Thereby, SLANDERING all those who served in our armed forces, or have ever served, saying that they are in Satan’s service.
I challenge 777 to either back-up that claim and explain why the Word of God would praise those in Satan’s service calling them Christians, God-fearers, and men & women of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16) OR apologize to the millions of military personel (both living & deceased) that he has insulted & slandered.
I challenge 777 to either back-up that claim and explain why the Word of God would praise those in Satan’s service calling them Christians, God-fearers, and men & women of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16) OR apologize to the millions of military personel (both living & deceased) that he has insulted & slandered.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Sir Knight said:
Of course he is. He is also slandering the Catholic Church, and accusing the Bishops and the Pope of a mortal sin – fashioning Catholic doctrine “just to appease the goverments and all the secular.”
In the process, he rejects the Magisterium and sets himself up as an athoritative interpreter of scripture – which is Protestantism by definition.
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estesbob
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Sir Knight said:
When I saw 777 post saying our military was in the service of Satan I knew this thread had met its end. He has asked twice for the thread to be shut down-i guess that is his way of doing it.
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estesbob
Guest
777 says our military is in the service of Satan. Am I to respect that?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
When he slanders the Catholic Church, and accuses the Bishops and the Pope of a mortal sin – fashioning Catholic doctrine “just to appease the goverments and all the secular,” are we supposed to respect that?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
vern humphrey:
What did Jesus say was the one unforgivenable sin? Wasn’t it to attribute things of God to the devil? Isn’t that what 777 is doing by accusing those in God’s service to be in the devil’s service?
It’s even more serious than that. Let’s not forget that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of priests and even bishops, serving in our military as chaplins. They are in service to God and 777’s statement implies that they are in service to the devil.
What did Jesus say was the one unforgivenable sin? Wasn’t it to attribute things of God to the devil? Isn’t that what 777 is doing by accusing those in God’s service to be in the devil’s service?
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dhgray
Guest
We, the US Militay, more times than not put ourselves in harms way to reduce the number of inocent casualties. There are reports of soldires and Marines who have thrown themselves on a live gernade to save inocent lives. Too bad the enemy doesn’t feel the same way. They would kill 100 inocent lives to get one American (military or civilian).
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