Kneeling vs Standing

[benedictgal]

I personally was giving a few possibilities. I never said all should stand because of a few who couldn’t kneel, but perhaps some parishes have a large number who cannot kneel.

And the Churches with no kneelers? However this happened, this is a fact at this point, and until it can be changed, if there are pews set in place, I doubt kneeling would be practical, since I doubt there would be enough room. All the commotion would be far more distracting than reverent. Standing with a profound bow would be far more solemn & reverent than that rukus.

You mentioned what would be done if Jesus appeared physically. When Jesus was here, He stressed obedience. He never told us to kneel, but He did tell us to obey His Church authority.

Lux

Now, you are sounding like the folks who advocate sola scriptura, Lux.

Jesus led by example. What posture do you think that he took when addresing the Father during his Agony in the garden? Pope Benedict provides the answer right there.

We should remember that Luke, unlike Matthew and Mark, speaks of the Lord kneeling in Gethsemane, which shows that Luke wants the kneeling of the first martyr to be seen as his entry into the prayer of Jesus. Kneeling is not only a Christian gesture, but a christological one.

In your zeal to promote “unity” in posture, you are forgetting some very important things here. As Pope Benedict writes, there seem to be those who have this opinion:

There are groups, of no small influence, who are trying to talk us out of kneeling. “It doesn’t suit our culture”, they say (which culture?) “It’s not right for a grown man to do this – he should face God on his feet”. Or again: “It’s not appropriate for redeemed man – he has been set free by Christ and doesn’t need to kneel any more”.

However, imbedded within your quote is the fact that, at least for the Eucharistic Prayer (from the epiclesis to the Memoriial Acclamation), the universal posture is kneeling. So, are you against having people kneel for the consecration? I’ve been to places that have no kneelers, yet, I still kneel for the consecration. If you are healthy and able-bodied, then there is no excuse for you to not kneel. Heck, I;ll even kneel on a muddy field, if need be.

At the Cathedral, several years ago, we had an outdoor Mass (first and last time–the rector and I knew it was going to be a big mistake, but, he permitted it and later regretted it) to celebrate the Vigil of Our Lady of Guadalupe. We knelt on the ground and on the concrete. We were maybe 200 in attenandance. We had it at the plaza across from the Cathedral with the gazebo serving as the “sanctuary”. No one complained about kneeling.

 

[grandfather]

I When Jesus was here, He stressed obedience. He never told us to kneel, but He did tell us to obey His Church authority.

Lux

I assume that us includes clergy. So what to do when clergy blatantly defies authority?

 

[grandfather]

I personally was giving a few possibilities. I never said all should stand because of a few who couldn’t kneel, but perhaps some parishes have a large number who cannot kneel.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

No, it isn’t. Pick up your kneeler, and see how ackward it is to kneel on the floor, especially for someone under 5’5 or so. The pew is just too high, and there is not enough room between pews.

If the Pastor has decided there is a good reason to stand, his instruction should be followed. If someone feels this is wrong, they should follow his instruction, and discuss it later. RS has told us the manner to address our concerns, and it is not to criticise the Pastor, or try to second guess his instructions.

RS

1. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity

.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I assume that us includes clergy. So what to do when clergy blatantly defies authority?

This is what you are not understanding. It is not defying authority to make a decision when you are given the option to make this decision. It is not up to you to decide whether or not the Pastor has a good reason for his instruction. You may go to another parish, discuss this with him, or contact the Bishop. This is not a matter of faith or morals, so you are obligated to respect and obey him.

Lux

 

[steve975]

You may go to another parish, discuss this with him, or contact the Bishop.

Or kneel anyway.

 

[grandfather]

This is what you are not understanding. It is not defying authority to make a decision when you are given the option to make this decision. It is not up to you to decide whether or not the Pastor has a good reason for his instruction. You may go to another parish, discuss this with him, or contact the Bishop. This is not a matter of faith or morals, so you are obligated to respect and obey him.

Lux

This might help the discussion or not.

My parish has no kneelers. That does not stop anyone from kneeling. There is no rukus, no commotion, and the tall and the short manage to kneel. No one complains.

The reasons given by the no kneel crowd are many. There is such a crown and their motives and reasons are not about ruckuses, uniformity, discomfort, or any of the rest. They want to put an end to kneeling.

I was a member of a parish whose pastor introduced several practices that were outside the norms. Some parishoners complained to the bishop, and were ignored. This priest made jokes about how stupid the pope was during Mass (JPII). He publicly dissented from many Church teachings. He ended up getting arrested, and the diocese ended up paying millions in the subsequent suit.

This particular parish had at least six priests who abandoned their vows over twenty years and two who were stripped of their faculties. All were dissenters and always had some excuse or theory to justify their “instructions”. One of them was a cofounder and writer for a radical gay magazine. The bishop did nothing. He was a big promoter of the gay agenda and controversy always followed him. He ended up having a breakdown and retiring after about five years as a priest. The priest who was pastor when the parish was built was sentenced to fourteen years in prison. You can guess what the crime was. He was transferred and protected by the bishop and again the diocese paid millions to settle. The current pastor says the parish is not a parish, but a community gathering place. He wants to spend a big bundle to remodel it to be more of a gathering place. I don’t go there anymore, but spent many years there and have friends who go there. There have been some solid young priests who were assigned for a littlw while, but they were driven out.

The kneeling vs. standing controversy is one issue. When it is obvious that you have a lunatic for a pastor what should you do? Pray for him. What else? Inform the bishop. He does nothing. It is the obligation of the laity to rebuke these men, according to St. Thomas.

If a pastor told you to show up in a bikini would you? But the weather is hot and bathing suits are comfortable and cool. Clothing makes everyone get sweaty. There may be some norm on dress, but in Africa women are topless, so what’s the big deal? Some people can not afford nice clothing and those who can’t feel badly. The pastor can instruct the faithful using his judgment or justified by some other loophole and they must obey him. It is his discretion to treat these matters as he chooses.

 

[Brendan]

This is what you are not understanding. It is not defying authority to make a decision when you are given the option to make this decision. .

Lux

Actually, the decision IS personal. It is not up to the pastor to decide of I have insufficient space to kneel or not, it is not up to the pastor to determine if I am too old or not, it is not up to the pastor to determine if I am too infirm.

All the preventions listed are personal choices, and likewise the last of the items "good reasons:.

In addition, the GIRM discusses 'preventions" which are different from instructions. They are preexisting ( hence the ‘pre’) and they are environmental.

So yes, the pastor may give his opinion on posture, but that is not a prevention, and we are still free to make a personal determination.

 

[Brendan]

This might help the discussion or not.

My parish has no kneelers. That does not stop anyone from kneeling. There is no rukus, no commotion, and the tall and the short manage to kneel. No one complains. .

When we were expanding our Nave, our parish had Masses in the parish hall. There were no kneelers, but everyone still knelt. No fuss, no commotion either.

The “commotion” argument against kneeling is a red herring.

 

[KathleenElsie]

No, it isn’t. Pick up your kneeler, and see how ackward it is to kneel on the floor, especially for someone under 5’5 or so. The pew is just too high, and there is not enough room between pews.

If the Pastor has decided there is a good reason to stand, his instruction should be followed. If someone feels this is wrong, they should follow his instruction, and discuss it later. RS has told us the manner to address our concerns, and it is not to criticise the Pastor, or try to second guess his instructions.

RS .

Lux

I’m 4’10", I have arthritus and am over 60 years old. I kneel on the floor if there are no kneelers when at the Latin rite. I can assure you there are no kneelers in the crypt at St. Vincents in Latrobe. The folding chairs are the only thing we can hold onto to get down and get up.

The Byzentane Rite Church we attend has very narrow pews. Most of the Liturgy is standing as is their norm.

If you have a physical condition that makes kneeling hard then by all means stand or sit as this is allowed also, just please don’t argue with those of us that kneel.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I am just repeating the GIRM, and RS regarding norms, and the manner to handle a concern.

You are free to do as you choose, but I personally will follow the custom of the Parish where I attend Mass, and/or the instructions of the Pastor.

When our kneelers were being refurbished, the Pastor told us to stand, rather than kneel on the frames which would damage them.

Now the whole Church is being redone, and the chairs in the gym are far too close to kneel. We follow his instructions.

Lux

 

[2nmga]

Good reasons for individuals were posted, but also if a community had a large number who could not kneel, they might feel that it is better to have the uniformity of standing, rather than a divided posture.

Lux

Before standing ever became a norm in some parishes, I remember that anyone who was physically unable to kneel just sat on the edge of the pew. I know I’ve done that before when holding a child – or pregnant!

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Again, I am only suggesting possible reasons, and stating that I would rather respect my pastor, then kneel when he feels it is better to stand. You are certainly free to do what you feel is best.

Lux

 

[yola_dawn]

can someone let me know when it became ok not to kneel just because there is no kneeler if people are able.
from what i know, we kneel for the Consecration. What i’m saying is, for that one moment, by God’s grace, Our Lord comes to us, body blood soul and divinity and so, at that moment, we should show the utmost reverence and respect to Our Lord - if our bodies allow us.
I agree with ‘benedictgal’, we should be willing to kneel anywhere, anytime where Our Lord is present. I don’t think that when Daniel (6:10) went to his chamber, knelt, adored and gave thanks to his God, thought to himself, oh, let me get a cushion/kneeler first; the same with the Magi who fell to their knees (matt. 2:11), or the leper (mark 1:40) and many others.
am i taking this out of context, or am I just being a bit too old fashioned with thinking of it as a sacrifice, since i know we no longer walk around in sackcloth & ashes!
ave maria
p.s. this sounds a bit mad, but maybe, in those parishes where there aren’t any kneelers, the parish could bring a cushion to kneel on until they are able to raise money for those individual kneelers seen in old traditional chapels (you know the ones that are kept under the seats)

 

[grandmama16]

It’s a good idea to being your own cushion to kneel on if necessary which I did when my knee was hurting very badly but our parishioners knelt on the carpeted floor for over 35 yrs when we had connecting chairs before out new church was built. There was one space in time when our then Pastor decided we should stand and that did not feel reverent or even comfortable. His excuse was the elderly. The next Pastor changed it back to kneeling with the condition that if you were unable to do so then sit. There was one deacon in our Diocese who insisted on standing during the consecration and I suppose that was reverent to him but it did look a little strange. He has since died…and may his soul rest in peace. We almost feel it is a luxury now to have kneelers. :heaven: We now have a young pastor who is very conservative and he is soon going to unveil a latin Mass but not for every Sunday. I’m looking forward to it but I’d like to know, tho, when do we stand, sit and kneel then? I have old Missals but it doesn’t say. It just says what the priest does. Can anyone tell me what the people do? I remember the old Latin Mass but I was not even a convert when I attended them as a teen so I just don’t remember. :M.A.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

can someone let me know when it became ok not to kneel just because there is no kneeler if people are able.

As was said the norm says:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

Often people try to kneel when there is not enough room, or they cannot kneel without causing a distraction to those near them. I feel standing with a profound bow is far more reverent than trying to kneel without accommodation.

Also I would consider the request of a Pastor a good reason, even if I didn’t know exactly why he made the request.

Lux

 

[yola_dawn]

thanks for answering
well, i am from the uk, so i’d have to find out what the bishops over here say. ‘some other good reason’ can be relative and so the disagreement will continue; i have been to mass in packed places (fatima - lovely and would try my best to kneel or move into a place where i can kneel rather than think that since its packed then i will not bother at all… but i guess not everyone can move! so, fair enough.
ave maria

 

[yola_dawn]

kneel from the beginning (when the priest genuflects and makes the sign of the cross) up until the espistle when you can sit.
stand for gospel
after sermon, stand for credo (creed)
sit after the credo,when the priest says the offertory verse.
kneel for the sanctus til communion
kneel from the post communion prayer to the final blessing then
stand for the final gospel

ave maria

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hi Yola,

‘some other good reason’ can be relative and so the disagreement will continue;

You can bet the ranch on that!!

I was always very much in favor of kneeling & genuflecting, regardless of what everyone else did, but I have come to understand that the Mass is a community prayer, and it is better to act in community than use personal preference.

In personal prayer, I do kneel or genuflect more, but at Mass, I try to act in community. I really don’t like hand-holding during the Lord’s prayer (especially those chains and/or conga lines), but it is the custom in my parish, so I offer it up and take a hand when someone climbs over a chair to offer it.

Lately my back and knees aren’t too good, so sitting is the most reverent posture for me (better to concentrate on prayer than the back or knee pain)

Lux

 

[yola_dawn]

i admire that lux; that’s what im trying to do at the moment.
i usually go to the tridentine (extreme) form of mass, but i do not exculde the new mass, and go to that during the week. as you may have noticed, i wrote when to sit/stand/kneel in this mass for grandmama16, and so sometimes i find it hard to adjust when going to the new mass (i.e. doing the same actions as everyone else since some are different in the tridentine mass).
through prayer and that same spirit, i try to adjust my personal preferences when praying in communion too.
so pray for me and ill pray for you and everyone else on here too.
ave maria!