Kneeling vs Standing

[grandmama16]

Thanks Yola for explaining the kneeling, standing, sitting at the Latin Mass. Our Pastor will start doing a latin Mass at 8am Sun. every week and one on Wed. eve for daily Mass which I go to. Should be interesting. He has been practicing for a long time. He’s a young priest…only 43…but has always been partial to the old ways. Like me, he’s a convert. He told me today that there will be a little pamphlet to follow. Our Trappist Monastery also has a Latin Mass on Sun. and have a pamphlet for it,but I think it’s only once a mo. Maybe ours will be once a mo. on Sun. too…I’m not sure. I go to the monastery once a month for spiritual direction from a priest I’ve known since my conversion, and I asked him…“who are the altar boys, to give the responses in Latin?” He smiled and pointed at himself… a 75 yr. old altar boy. He personal prefers the English Mass where people participate (and says a very reverent one,) but can see how people appreciate the extra reverence of the Latin Mass. On EWTN there’s a combination of both which I like. Why can’t that be done more often
By the way, we attended a huge church when we were living near our daughter as she fought cancer and they never knelt after the Lamb of God but we did…preferring to sit at the very back in the pews to the right of the altar. However I had to close my eyes when the priest said Behold the Lamb of God…because I was looking at people’s behinds but it still just seemed right to kneel at that moment. Gorgeous church, shaped like a cross inside, very nice pews and kneelers. The previous Bishop had directed that people stand at that time and the new Bishop had never changed it. So…were we being disobedient? Seemed such a waste of good kneelers to not kneel the 2nd time during Mass. Thank goodness our Bishop has not directed that. In our new church we’re just happy to finally have kneelers :extrahappy: after 35 years of kneeling on the carpet. M.A.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

The previous Bishop had directed that people stand at that time and the new Bishop had never changed it. So…were we being disobedient?

Hi Gandmama,

I’m a Grammy, too—but that was shortened to Mimi.

Disobedient is far too strong a word to use in this situation. It is more about acting in community at Mass, which is the public worship of the Church. But if you feel that strongly about kneeling at that time, it is ok. Perhaps you may want to think of it as following the wishes of the host community when you are a guest, not wrong to kneel, but a nice gesture on your part to stand as the others are doing.

Lux

 

[grandmama16]

Thanks “mimi”…that’s cute. :dancing: : You are right about remaining in communion with the rest of the worshipers. I wrestled with this the whole time we lived there so sometimes stood but so often I just couldn’t when the priest raised Our Lord for us to Adore “Behold…” so I’d kneel then and then stand. Everyone remained standing until receiving Communion, then knelt after and remained kneeling until the priest sat. Too much standing for my back tho and my husband would not remain kneeling. :tsktsk: Oh, we are a very “onrey” couple. Oh well, we’re home now where kneeling after Lamb of God is the ordinary and most, but not all, remain kneeling until the priest is finished at the altar. M.A.
P.S…I spend more time picking out the little characters than I do actually writing my post. :coffeeread:

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

The characters add “character”

I’m sure it’s fine for you to kneel. I wish they would all agree on one posture, and request that it is followed. This may help solve the confusion and non-uniformity.

Lux

 

[NeedImprovement]

I was very happy to find this thread …was going to try starting one myself to view some other members’ opinions…instead I searched around a bit. Now all I had to do was read.

About 4 weeks ago, at the funeral Mass of the young son of a friend of mine, a guest priest/presider instructed everyone to stand during the consecration.At our parish we always kneel during the consecration.

The difference here is that we have very nice kneelers (all reupholstered roughly 7 years ago). I understand the posters who say they don’t want to distract, esp. when kneeling is not accomodated due to renovations or lack of kneelers, or from physical disabilities.

The difference here was that kneeling is generously accomodated in our parish, yet the presider instructed the faithful to stand throughout the consecration. I have to paraphrase a little but his instructions basically went like this:

" Now please, everybody remain standing during this prayer…because standing is a sign of strength and of unity with the risen Lord."

It doesn’t seem to matter how many mental gymnastics I do - I can’t get used to that idea of standing during the consecration; that is when kneeling is accomodated and when it is the prevalent norm/custom of the parish and of the Roman Rite Catholic Church in general. Jesus bowed down so low to become truly and substantially present in the Most Holy Eucharist; it seems only natural to me to kneel during such a sacred moment.

 

[tee_eff_em]

By the way, we attended a huge church when

we were living

near our daughter as she fought cancer and

they never knelt after the Lamb of God

but we did…preferring to sit at the very back in the pews to the right of the altar. However I had to close my eyes when the priest said Behold the Lamb of God…because I was looking at people’s behinds but it still just seemed right to kneel at that moment. Gorgeous church, shaped like a cross inside, very nice pews and kneelers.

The previous Bishop had directed that people stand at that time and the new Bishop had never changed it

. So…were we being disobedient?

I had mis-read this previously as while you were “visiting” – If you were actually living in the diocesan territory (domocile or quasi-domocile), and presuming it to have been in the United States, the decision to kneel or to stand after the *Agnus Dei *is within the purview of the ordinary (GIRM #43). If those are the facts, then I would judge that yes, you were being disobedient. :twocents:

(Remember: The universal posture for this portion of the liturgy is to stand, and it is only by indulgence that the faithful in many places are permitted to kneel)

I cannot say what consequence, if any, might follow from disobedience in such a case.

:twocents:
tee

 

[grandfather]

I was very happy to find this thread …was going to try starting one myself to view some other members’ opinions…instead I searched around a bit. Now all I had to do was read.

About 4 weeks ago, at the funeral Mass of the young son of a friend of mine, a guest priest/presider instructed everyone to stand during the consecration.At our parish we always kneel during the consecration.

The difference here is that we have very nice kneelers (all reupholstered roughly 7 years ago). I understand the posters who say they don’t want to distract, esp. when kneeling is not accomodated due to renovations or lack of kneelers, or from physical disabilities.

The difference here was that kneeling is generously accomodated in our parish, yet the presider instructed the faithful to stand throughout the consecration. I have to paraphrase a little but his instructions basically went like this:

" Now please, everybody remain standing during this prayer…because standing is a sign of strength and of unity with the risen Lord."

It doesn’t seem to matter how many mental gymnastics I do - I can’t get used to that idea of standing during the consecration; that is when kneeling is accomodated and when it is the prevalent norm/custom of the parish and of the Roman Rite Catholic Church in general. Jesus bowed down so low to become truly and substantially present in the Most Holy Eucharist; it seems only natural to me to kneel during such a sacred moment.

The priest had no authority to give this instruction. I was at a funeral Mass where the priest instructed everyone to sit, presumably to make non-Catholic visitors comfortable. At that Mass this priest also changed the words of consecration significantly enough to make the Mass invalid. We live in sad times.

 

[grandfather]

I had mis-read this previously as while you were “visiting” – If you were actually living in the diocesan territory (domocile or quasi-domocile), and presuming it to have been in the United States, the decision to kneel or to stand after the *Agnus Dei *is within the purview of the ordinary (GIRM #43). If those are the facts, then I would judge that yes, you were being disobedient. :twocents:

(Remember: The universal posture for this portion of the liturgy is to stand, and it is only by indulgence that the faithful in many places are permitted to kneel)

I cannot say what consequence, if any, might follow from disobedience in such a case.

:twocents:
tee

I recall seeing pictures of several Missionaries of Charity at a public Mass celebrated by a bishop at a stadium. He instructed everyone to stand. They were on their knees. Maybe you are disobedient in good company.

 

[japhy]

(Remember: The universal posture for this portion of the liturgy is to stand, and it is only by indulgence that the faithful in many places are permitted to kneel)

I’m not sure it’s accurate to say it’s permitted “only by indulgence”. GIRM 43, translated from the Latin, says “Where the custom exists, that the people, from the Sanctus through to the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says ‘Behold the Lamb of God’, remain kneeling, it is laudable to retain this custom.” That sounds more than mere “indult”. I could be wrong, though.

 

[NeedImprovement]

The priest had no authority to give this instruction. I was at a funeral Mass where the priest instructed everyone to sit, presumably to make non-Catholic visitors comfortable. At that Mass this priest also changed the words of consecration significantly enough to make the Mass invalid. We live in sad times.

        AMEN grandfather !   :thumbsup:

I wasn’t going to mention it, but since you did, I bet it wasn’t a coincidence that the presider at the funeral I attended/participated in also let his imagination run off in the fast lane during the Eucharistic Prayer. The words of consecration weren’t too badly couched, but the rest of the Eucharistic Prayer certainly was…to the point that if my ears had been eyes they would have been squinting and straining in an effort to recognize the prayer.

 

[yola_dawn]

its ok grandmama, i have just come back from the traditional mass actually. great to hear! i love the traditional mass (well i love mass…all masses, but this form for me personally… i dont know how to explain…everyone is different so its a god thing then that there are 2 forms of the one rite ((yes i have come across the ewtn mass (((love ewtn!))) isn’t that the type the pope says, i havnt watched a papal mass in a while)) ) - anyway
i agree with lux on the disobedient matter, since i too think do i do what i feel is right for me or do i do what everyone else (the community) feels is right… but at the same time, i think to myself, when pondering on lux’s point about community, think of the religious life - people when entering have to confrom themselves to that of the community, so??? stil not sure
kneelers! woohoo!!!

just read needimprovement’s comment: i am stil young and have not been in that situation as yet. i keep on saying the same thing without coming to a conclusion, since i am very adamant and i do feel that i have the right to kneel BUT just thinking about st faustina and her disobedience - i don’t really know the story, but from what i know, her priest/spiritual director was telling her 2 do one thing and she didnt listen since it was contrary to what she knew she should be doing (remember, she spoke to Our Lord directly and so presumed that what he tells her overrides what anyone else does…naturally) but our lord rebuked her for her lack of obedience! to me, this story is inspiring, and reminds me of the reading i heard today about humbling outrselves. the same goes for st padre pio who knew his stigmata was true, etc and accepted not being able to hear confessions and being confided to his cell for many years, all out of obedience to the Holy Father.
Basically, if we know think that we should kneel but the priest is telling us to sit/stand then should we obey? but then, i was taught, for example, to obey the 4th commandment of honouring our parents, execpt, obviously, if they command us to commit a sin, especially a mortal sin!
So… i’ll take a back seat now and continue to read what everyone else has to say so maybe sonn i will come to a conclusion as what to do.
Ave Maria

 

[Jimzz12]

If you are young or healthy the kneeling won’t kill you.

If you are old or feeble the kneeling just might.

Extrapilate what you will from this…

Don’t be a wimp. Lead by example.

Me. I care less if my knees get raw and shoots of pain go through them. It takes less than 10 minutes of pain to gain the maximum satisfaction of pleasing the Christ.

Did not Christ ask us to stay with him and pray a while. Not to be comfortable but to pray a while. If Jesus knelt on hard rocks and paving stones I will too. Thank you for showing me the way.

Yesterday was an outdoor Mass in the North End.

I knelt on the pavement of Endicott Street. Big Deal? Not really.

I am a Knight. I kneel for my King.

 

[grandmama16]

Dear NEED…I’m curious…how were the words of consecration changed. I know it’s hard to remember. I’ve heard some priests add some things but I think the consecration was still valid. It is sad that priests think they can “do their own thing” with the words Our Lord said. I’m so glad we have a traditional minded priest. Boy, we sure got a good homily on the truth of the Catholic faith this week-end, and especially on the True Presence. M.A.

 

[Sam_Maloney]

Our pastor demanded that people stand for years-- I don’t think he honestly understood that this wasn’t really permitted, given our liturgical space and circumstances.

But he’d read an article in National Catholic Reporter that made the case that kneeling is a penitential posture, standing was more joyful. He also felt that kneeling was ‘too easy’, though I never understood his reasoning there. Still, I’ve made a point to kneel upright without leaning on anything since then.

I continued to kneel, even when I was the only one. His reason was far from being ‘good’, IMO, at least not good enough to justify compliance.

I was treated quite shamefully by the priest and others, and I hate to do anything to call attention to myself. Kneeling was difficult, though not for physical reasons.

But when I tried standing, and found myself resentful at being forcibly separated from Catholic rule and tradtion and the vast majority of believers through time and around the world. I would actually end up very angry, and unable to pray properly.

When our bishop sent out a letter about the coming changes to the liturgy, our priest asked people to start kneeling again [after at least 5 years of standing]. I think he simply didn’t ‘get’ it…

 

[whatevergirl]

I attend Mass occasionally at a Church in which the congregation remains standing during the Consecration rather than kneeling. The reason is that there is a side hall where none of the seats have kneelers, and so it’s sort of a “community” thing for the rest of the congregation to also remain standing so as to provide some type of uniformity. I always kneel regardless. Last weekend, the priest actually stated, “please remain standing”, but I still knelt down anyway.

My understanding is that either kneeling or standing are both considered acceptable forms of reverence (I’ve read that standing is common in Byzantine Masses). But my understanding is also that a priest doesn’t have the authority to command people to stand instead of kneel. Any thoughts?

He might have said remain standing, so no one sits during that part of mass. This is the first time ever in my life, I have attended a parish, where there are no kneelers. It must be a Florida thing, because the first parish we attended last year, had no kneelers. We left that parish for a variety of reasons, and now are members of a new one about 10 miles away. We love it in many ways, but wish there were kneelers. The priest explained during a mass a few months ago, that this is perfectly acceptable (standing) as a show of respect as a community before Christ. But, I still kneel after receiving Communion. He has never commented to those who are kneeling. I think that maybe the priest at your parish, was referring to those who were sitting back, instead of remaining standing until the priest is seated.

Maybe?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Did not Christ cause the paralytic to stand and take up his mat? I wonder if the crowds would have been as awed, and if Our Lord would have been pleased, had the man risen only as far as his knees?

tee

 

[NeedImprovement]

Dear NEED…I’m curious…how were the words of consecration changed. I know it’s hard to remember. I’ve heard some priests add some things but I think the consecration was still valid. It is sad that priests think they can “do their own thing” with the words Our Lord said. I’m so glad we have a traditional minded priest. Boy, we sure got a good homily on the truth of the Catholic faith this week-end, and especially on the True Presence. M.A.

I don’t think I’d be able to give you the exact quote during the consecration grandmama16 (I had a variety of liturgical duties to perform during the funeral), but use of the word “couched” was intentional.

I clearly recall that, within the gibberish I distinctly heard the words …“Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.” There were a few inflections (you’re asking me to guess a little here) but I believe “Do this in memory of me”, was rendered, “When you do this, you’re remembering me.” So the crucial words were said, and as long as the priest had the intention to consecrate, transubstantiation took place.

I did find it regrettable that little “mini-sermons” seemed to be taking place all throughout the exceedingly camouflaged Eucharistic Prayer. It’s a shame because this priest is a fine orator. I always see weaknesses such as these as an invitation for me to pray especially for that priest. Nonetheless, the Eucharistic Prayer is not the property of the priest - it belongs to the Church. So no one has a right to take liberties with it.

I’m trying to figure out how I’m going to get myself back on topic now .

It would seem a little contradictory that some see kneeling as a sign of penance whereas in the early Church, at one point, it almost became synonymous with prayer. The recommended sign of respect before the exposed Blessed Sacrament is a double genuflexion…down on both knees. It looks just like kneeling right?
So may it be said then, that in this context, what some may wish to label a “penitential posture” is actually a sign of respect and/or adoration ?

Anyone recall reading about this scene, of the Angel of Fatima’s second appearance to the children?..:

…One year later Lucia was tending sheep with her two cousins, Francisco and Jacinta Marto. This time the Angel came with very distinguishable features. He said to them: “Don’t be afraid. I am the Angel of Peace. Pray with me.” He then knelt and, bowing with his forehead to the ground, prayed three times: “My God, I believe, I adore, I hope, and I love Thee! I beg pardon of Thee for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee!” Then He said to the children: “Pray thus. The Hearts of Jesus and Mary are attentive to the voice of your supplications.” With these words the Angel left them. The children felt so enveloped by God’s Presence that they remained bowed to the ground for a long time repeating this prayer. This special atmosphere which they felt then gradually left them. Soon the three children were back to spending their days playing games together…

Then, what happened in the next apparition where the Angel brought the children the Blessed Sacrament?..:

When the Angel appeared to them at the Loca do Cabeço he was “holding a chalice in his hands, with a host above it from which some drops of blood were falling into the Sacred vessel.” The Angel left the chalice and host suspended in the air, and prostrated himself upon the ground with the children and prayed the following prayer with them three times:
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer you the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended. And through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of You the conversion of poor sinners. Amen.
The Angel then rose, and taking the host he gave it to Lucy, and to Jacinta and Francisco he gave the contents of the chalice, saying as he did so: “Take and drink the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men. Repair their crimes and console your God.” Then he prostrated himself once more with the children and repeated the prayer to the Most Holy Trinity three times, then disappeared

It is notable here that the Angel mentioned was one of the Holy Angels…who never disobeyed God. So how could his posture be construed as one of a penitential nature…? Further on, he prostrates himself on the ground before the Blessed Sacrament - the One and same Blessed Sacrament present on the altar at every Mass from the moment of consecration onwards.

So at the very least, what we who kneel see as a posture of prayerful respect or adoration, might possibly be construed as a posture of reparation; in which case every one capable of kneeling should probably be doing it at least once a day when they pray (if possible). Wouldn’t you think ?

I believe Sam Maloney staes it well when he says some people just “don’t get it.”

 

[tee_eff_em]

[aside:]

The recommended sign of respect before the exposed Blessed Sacrament is a double genuflexion…down on both knees. It looks just like kneeling right?

While I have never witnessed anyone to be reprimanded for a double genuflection, that posture has not been the prescribed one for a number of years (one might even say “for a generation”):

1. Genuflection in the presence of the blessed sacrament, whether reserved in the tabernacle or exposed for public adoration, is on one knee.
   
   
   EUCHARISTIAE SACRAMENTUM
   Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship
   21 June 1973​

tee

 

[NeedImprovement]

[aside:]

While I have never witnessed anyone to be reprimanded for a double genuflection, that posture has not been the prescribed one for a number of years (one might even say “for a generation”):

tee

Point taken.

I still see the double genuflection by one or two of the faithful pretty well at every exposition of the Blessed Sacrament but usually do a simple genuflection myself.

“For a generation”, you say ? I wonder if that would in any way coincide with a time when there was a lean towards *kneeling during Mass being perceived/proposed as a penitential posture * as opposed to previous generations ?

 

[NeedImprovement]

According to EWTN in certain countries some Bishops’ Conferences voted to retain the double genuflection as the liturgical norm…can be seen at the following link:
ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur92.htm

I read a nice way of putting it at an “Adoremus” site. They said although the single genuflection was the liturgical norm, the double genuflection was a “time honored” gesture of adoration.