Knowing what we know for certain, is reproduction a selfish and cruel act?

[oldcelt]

One need only look around to get my meaning. Add to that the various theories of god, the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty.

Thoughts?

 

[mommamaree]

“Woe to those who call good evil, or evil good.”
-Our Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus also warned that a day would come when people would declare blessed those wombs which never bore children, and those breasts which never suckled. We are truly living in those times.

 

[Jeanne_S]

ST.Pope JohnPaul II once said(this is not verbatim): With each new life born,comes renewed hope for humanity.
Wise words indeed.Children are our future,to not bring new life forward is selfish and shortsighted ,don’t you think

 

[livingwordunity]

ST.Pope JohnPaul II once said(this is not verbatim): With each new life born,comes renewed hope for humanity.
Wise words indeed.Children are our future,to not bring new life forward is selfish and shortsighted ,don’t you think

I agree. But I think the exception is if the new life being brought forward is by way of Islamic jihadist sex slavery were the women are held captive, raped, and used for the breeding and brainwashing of the next generation of Islamic terrorists.

 

[Aloysium]

Knowing what I know for certain is not the same as what others may know for certain.
What I know for certain is that I do not bring anyone into existence. God does that.My wife and I were the “vehicle” through which new life came into this world. My responsibility was to love and foster their physical, cognitive and spiritual growth.
I am certain that we are eternal beings and that God calls us to be with Him in paradise.
There is no possibility that reproduction is a cruel and selfish act, although the converse of not having children likely and usually is.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I’m going to die eventually, therefore it is immoral for me to seek out medial attention for my sickness.

(Not your argument, but using the same logic as your argument)

…Seriously?

You’re falling into nihilism, I’d start trying to climb out of that hole before you get any deeper, because once you’re down there you’ll start thinking that nothing has meaning, and that everything is utterly pointless.

 

[Nihilist]

One need only look around to get my meaning. Add to that the various theories of god, the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty.

Thoughts?

What you say is, for me, the greatest absolute moral certainty. I could perhaps forgive myself murder or theft, but I could never, ever, ever forgive myself reproduction.

I don’t try to convince others, nor do I judge others. But it is a serious isssue- the most serious issue. To impose life on another- that is a very, very, very grave thing to do. We can live out our own lives in Stoic resignation. But to pass it on, potentially to many generations…

This matter goes way beyond religion. You may or may not believe in God. But each one of us knows in our hearts that life is an ill thing…To deny it is to lie to yourself.

 

[CarmelJerome]

The acts of cruelty are performed by those who think that they have a right to use created things for their own enjoyment and pleasure, and who begrudge new human life coming into existence. The materialistic orientation of the industrialized or industrializing nations in wrecking the earth through what are called ‘brown technologies’ and ‘non-renewable’ resources is what undergirds this fundamentally self-centered view that procreation is somehow ‘selfish’. The reverse is the truth: it is unselfish, because maintaining those lives requires unselfishness; it teaches people to surrender things that they would normally indulge in; obliges them to think about the future; while those who disparage and assail procreation want to make room for their own pleasures & egos. If the lifestyles of the people who promulgate birth prevention and abortion are examined, they all enjoy or seek indulgence of the products of the destructive commercial culture without hindrance.

 

[Nihilist]

I’m going to die eventually, therefore it is immoral for me to seek out medial attention for my sickness.

(Not your argument, but using the same logic as your argument)

…Seriously?

You’re falling into nihilism, I’d start trying to climb out of that hole before you get any deeper, because once you’re down there you’ll start thinking that nothing has meaning, and that everything is utterly pointless.

It doesn’t matter if you think it is ‘pointless’ or not. Reproduction is imposing a ‘life sentence’ onto another soul- without their consent. I don’t see how one human being can think they have that right.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This matter goes way beyond religion. You may or may not believe in God. But each one of us knows in our hearts that life is an ill thing…To deny it is to lie to yourself.

That’s funny, I know the exact opposite. Life is wonderful, even in times of trials it is great. Even in times of suffering I wouldn’t trade it for anything, especially not non-existence. To deny that life has meaning is to lie to yourself, to embrace its meaning is to be true to yourself.

 

[Nihilist]

The acts of cruelty are performed by those who think that they have a right to use created things for their own enjoyment and pleasure, and who begrudge new human life coming into existence. The materialistic orientation of the industrialized or industrializing nations in wrecking the earth through what are called ‘brown technologies’ and ‘non-renewable’ resources is what undergirds this fundamentally self-centered view that procreation is somehow ‘selfish’. The reverse is the truth: it is unselfish, because maintaining those lives requires unselfishness; it teaches people to surrender things that they would normally indulge in; obliges them to think about the future; while those who disparage and assail procreation want to make room for their own pleasures & egos. If the lifestyles of the people who promulgate birth prevention and abortion are examined, they all enjoy or seek indulgence of the products of the destructive commercial culture without hindrance.

What about monks and nuns, who live an ascetic life, and choose not to reproduce?

Reproduction is selfish. In exchange for ‘family’, sex, a big ego of feeling like a ‘Father figure’, a sense of ‘meaning’, a sentence of seventy years labor is imposed on someone else.

Better quitely serve your time, and pass into the night…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It doesn’t matter if you think it is ‘pointless’ or not. Reproduction is imposing a ‘life sentence’ onto another soul- without their consent. I don’t see how one human being can think they have that right.

… Seriously?

It is not your place to give your consent, it’s God’s. Your opinion of your own self worth, or your lack of desire to exist is pretty much irrelevant. You are not the sum total by which your worth is judged. Your worth is Judged by Christ, who love you enough to sacrifice his life for you. That you place no stock in this sacrifice, and do not believe in your inherit worth has no affect on the reality of your worth, nor does is affect your importance to God.

To deny someone the right to live because you don’t like your life is a horrendously selfish act; why should you have any say on whether or not a person get’s to experience life. You may hate it, but they may love it. Why right do you have to deny them their life?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

What about monks and nuns, who live an ascetic life, and choose not to reproduce?

There is a stark contrast between chosing not to reproduce, and advocating that reproduction is evil. If you can’t see that, then you have blinded yourself, and should seek a physician to remove the log from your eye,

Better quitely serve your time, and pass into the night…

Feel free to do that, the rest of us, meanwhile, will continue to welcome new children to the world, and teach them the joys of our life.

 

[runningdude]

One need only look around to get my meaning.

We live in a world created by a loving God that abhors suffering and promises eternal life to those with faith. Suffering on Earth is real, but the God who created Earth is greater than suffering. He died to conquer death, and rose so that we may spend eternity with him.

Add to that the various theories of god,

I am Catholic. I have no “theory” of God, but faith in the God taught by the Catholic Church and scripture.

the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty. …

Again,

In light of God’s love, how could we be selfish enough to withhold creating new life that could spend eternity with God?

 

[mommamaree]

Who made you?

God made me.

Why did God make you?

God made me to show forth His goodness and to make me happy with Him in Heaven.

How can I be happy with God in Heaven?

To be happy with God in Heaven, I must know Him, love Him, and serve Him.

(From My First Catechism, a Catholic Catechism for little children)

Doesn’t sound like a life sentence to me. Children are the supreme gift of marriage given by God to a husband and wife. Life is the most amazing gift, an act of sheer goodness, from our Creator, who loved us from all eternity so much that we came into existence. Parents get to cooperate with God in this holy and wonderful and humbling endeavor. But this gift requires selflessness and unconditional love and hard work. The vocation to marriage and parenthood is not for everyone. But for those who are called to it, it is a path to holiness and that means nothing short of eternal happiness in union with our heavenly Father, and with God’s help, the company of all of our family.
Reproduction, or procreation, as the Church prefers to call it, is not selfish and cruel. It is the complete opposite: selfless and generous.

 

[Step_Hancock]

so its either give up, or help give this world more people who can grow to help change the world for the better

i don’t think reproduction is selfish. as long as its done in the marriage bed, its fine by me, but then again I’m not the one with the right to say that. that is God’s right and God’s right alone.
didnt’ God say
“Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it”

 

[Auntie_A]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

What you say is, for me, the greatest absolute moral certainty. I could perhaps forgive myself murder or theft, but I could never, ever, ever forgive myself reproduction.

I don’t try to convince others, nor do I judge others. But it is a serious isssue- the most serious issue. To impose life on another- that is a very, very, very grave thing to do. We can live out our own lives in Stoic resignation. But to pass it on, potentially to many generations…

This matter goes way beyond religion. You may or may not believe in God. But each one of us knows in our hearts that life is an ill thing…To deny it is to lie to yourself.

The key words and ideas that would dictate the conclusion of the OP that reproducing is selfish go to the words “impose life on another” versus the concept of being open to life.

No wonder someone would question reproduction. The world has indeed turned upside down and people believe that they are the authors of their life, from beginning to end: I made my children, I own them, they are mine mine MINE, I have the right to my own body, a fetus is just a blob of tissue, I have the right to end my own life whenever and however I want.

All of this belief avoids the fact that some people cannot bear children when they want, most birth control does not work all the time, some women find out they are pregnant at six months- too late to abort, some people will themselves to die but keep on living, some suicide attempts fail. How much CONTROL do we actually have here?

The life force is strong, even amongst the distressed, and the urge to reproduce is a strong part of that life force.

This is why we label such sentiments Nihilistic–the thoughts are death-related, not life upholding. There are reasons why people state these sentiments against bringing children into the world but there are more reasons to bring them in. If anything, a good reason for progeny is to bring in another life that you can’t 100% control.

Kids are very unsettling. In your family, in a restaurant, in your neighborhood, anywhere, they are very wild, amazing, hopeful, scary, frail, strong, uneducated, smart, funny, sad creatures that require direction, food, shelter, clothing, and love.

Who knows what answers they might bring in to the world at a small community level or at a grand global level? Who knows what brilliant people we have aborted already who could have brought questions and answers to the world?

Take care of your depression. Maybe it’s not a good idea to venture into baby making while you feel unable to raise a little one (although there is no law against it, thank God) but don’t discourage others.

If we say it enough will it make it so? " Oh, the world is hell and this is no place to bring in children," has been said during trying times…well, when have there not been trying times? Change “life is suffering” to “life has suffering”. Then learn how to cope with suffering.

 

[TarkanAttila]

It doesn’t matter if you think it is ‘pointless’ or not. Reproduction is imposing a ‘life sentence’ onto another soul- without their consent. I don’t see how one human being can think they have that right.

Funny you should say that. Maybe that is one reason the Church leaves it in the hands of God, and considers it a sin to use reproductive technologies alien to the conjugal union - a mysterious, almost chance process (not that repro tech is less chancy).

Heh. Maybe it is God, not men, who give life to human beings, either in vitro or in the womb.

But is the world good or evil? OP seems to think it is evil. Me? Not so sure. There’s a lot of good in it; it just often gets used the wrong way (IOW, abused). But if we, personally, learn how to use the world well, and how to live with others who do not, and maybe even find people who use it well, is life still really all that bad? But it is up to the life created to try and find that good life. What else are they going to do?

I suppose decide life is worthless and kill themselves - or make it their aim to wreak vengeance on nature, cruel as she is, as work to destroy as much humanity and/or life as is possible. If life is evil, why let it live? If it is worthless, why perpetuate the lie?

 

[Allegra]

What you say is, for me, the greatest absolute moral certainty. I could perhaps forgive myself murder or theft, but I could never, ever, ever forgive myself reproduction.

I don’t try to convince others, nor do I judge others. But it is a serious isssue- the most serious issue. To impose life on another- that is a very, very, very grave thing to do. We can live out our own lives in Stoic resignation. But to pass it on, potentially to many generations…

This matter goes way beyond religion. You may or may not believe in God. But each one of us knows in our hearts that life is an ill thing…To deny it is to lie to yourself.

What?! Speak for yourself! I absolutely love life. There is little that could happen to me that would make me think of my existance as an “ill thing”. If you really feel this way, you should probably see a doctor.

 

[Nihilist]

Funny you should say that. Maybe that is one reason the Church leaves it in the hands of God, and considers it a sin to use reproductive technologies alien to the conjugal union - a mysterious, almost chance process (not that repro tech is less chancy).

Heh. Maybe it is God, not men, who give life to human beings, either in vitro or in the womb.

But is the world good or evil? OP seems to think it is evil. Me? Not so sure. There’s a lot of good in it; it just often gets used the wrong way (IOW, abused). But if we, personally, learn how to use the world well, and how to live with others who do not, and maybe even find people who use it well, is life still really all that bad? But it is up to the life created to try and find that good life. What else are they going to do?

I suppose decide life is worthless and kill themselves - or make it their aim to wreak vengeance on nature, cruel as she is, as work to destroy as much humanity and/or life as is possible. If life is evil, why let it live? If it is worthless, why perpetuate the lie?

I am also strongly opposed to contraception, IVF, and certainly abortion (which is barbaric).

We are born in sin, Original Sin is transmitted by the conjugal act (this is Catechism). The consequence of Original Sin is that, during this life, man is bound to labor and suffer, and to die. He is also prone to committing further personal sins, making himself liable to eternal damnation

Some people chose celibacy. They do not transmit Original Sin, they accept the labor and suffering which they, children of Eve, have inherited, but do not pass it on.

The ability to chose celibacy is a grace. “Let him who can accept it, accept it”, as Christ says. I do not judge those who are not able to follow what Christ recommended.