Knowing what we know for certain, is reproduction a selfish and cruel act?

[rinnie]

That makes sense, we are definitely living in a world where most people see evil as good! Birth control has allowed LOTS of people to enjoy sex with none of the consequences, like childbirth!

I dont know about anyone else, but Im amazed God has not destroyed one or two US cities in modern times, we know he destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah, and some other nearby cities for the way they lived, how long before he says enough is enough in our times I wonder? LOL I think this would be a blessing if it happened, it would prove to alot of people that choices DO matter and how they choose to live DOES matter, but without it, things will keep getting worse and worse.

I guess what we really need to know is how long Sodom and Gomorrah existed before God destroyed them, this would give us a time line and we could speculate how long it takes before God takes action.

God does not have to destroy us, we destroy ourselves with giving into sin. I truly believe that kids today are changing, They had it all, and you know what? Many have good jobs, educations, and are choosing to have less to have kids and stay at home and just be Mom.

Guess it goes to show, maybe our grandparents got it right after all.
Do you need a 4 car garage, 4 bedroom house?

I have 4 bed, 5 baths, 2 livingrooms 8.5 acres and its me and my husband now. Really?

I grew up with 5 sibs l bathroom. 7 in the house. 4 bedroom house. We lived. But I will say there is NOTHING like your own bathroom and tub. But I could do without if I had to.

It all comes down to did God keep his promise to us?

Do we have all we need? Or do we need all we have.
Do we have all we want? Or want all we have.

I would gladly give up 3 bathrooms now that I am older, but not 3 kids.

 

[rinnie]

That makes sense, we are definitely living in a world where most people see evil as good! Birth control has allowed LOTS of people to enjoy sex with none of the consequences, like childbirth!

I dont know about anyone else, but Im amazed God has not destroyed one or two US cities in modern times, we know he destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah, and some other nearby cities for the way they lived, how long before he says enough is enough in our times I wonder? LOL I think this would be a blessing if it happened, it would prove to alot of people that choices DO matter and how they choose to live DOES matter, but without it, things will keep getting worse and worse.

I guess what we really need to know is how long Sodom and Gomorrah existed before God destroyed them, this would give us a time line and we could speculate how long it takes before God takes action.

And you know the ironic thing. I got married when I was 19, going on 33 years. Still enjoy sex, so does the ball and chain, and its the consequences like childbirth that made our life better, stronger, and worth living. And even with the consequences sex is still great, maybe even better.

Because when you have love and marriage in a relationship, sex is meaningful and a gift from God that keeps getting better. When its out of marriage, it becomes nothing. Boring, etc. Go figure:shrug:

 

[Usagi]

Yes. it would be opportune for God to destroy cities. Yet, He inflicts great punishment in not destroying them. Is not a place like San Fransisco or New York simply hell on earth?

Let’s have a return to basic decency- if you can support a child well, and offer it a good life- get married and have children. If not, be single and celibate. Birth control has given rise to dysfunctional relationships, sin, cultural degeneration, etc.

I stand by my view that it is better not to have children. But if you are going to have them- do it the right way- get married, and provide a secure environment. If you cant’ do this, give up sex- it won’t kill you…

That sounds more reasonable than what I thought your position was based on your earlier statements. Of course, one should be responsible in bringing children into the world. Earlier it seemed you were saying that helping to bring new souls into existence was inherently evil and cruel to those souls.

As Catholics, we know that every child conceived is a being that will outlive cities and planets and stars and, indeed, the entire universe as we know it now. A new citizen for Heaven. Yes, there is suffering in this life, but there is also joy. Even Jesus Himself, who was literally born in order to die a horrible death, had friends and family, celebrated festivals and weddings, enjoyed the wonders of Creation, and helped others. He brought one of His best friends (Lazarus) back to life rather than teaching that he was better off where he was, and rewarded His most loyal disciple (John) with the longest life rather than the quickest trip to Heaven. He was literally God hanging out down here with the worst of us, knowingly destined to be savagely murdered by us, and yet He did not condemn earthly life entirely or command that His generation be the last.

Usagi

 

[mommamaree]

That sounds more reasonable than what I thought your position was based on your earlier statements. Of course, one should be responsible in bringing children into the world. Earlier it seemed you were saying that helping to bring new souls into existence was inherently evil and cruel to those souls.

As Catholics, we know that every child conceived is a being that will outlive cities and planets and stars and, indeed, the entire universe as we know it now. A new citizen for Heaven. Yes, there is suffering in this life, but there is also joy. Even Jesus Himself, who was literally born in order to die a horrible death, had friends and family, celebrated festivals and weddings, enjoyed the wonders of Creation, and helped others. He brought one of His best friends (Lazarus) back to life rather than teaching that he was better off where he was, and rewarded His most loyal disciple (John) with the longest life rather than the quickest trip to Heaven. He was literally God hanging out down here with the worst of us, knowingly destined to be savagely murdered by us, and yet He did not condemn earthly life entirely or command that His generation be the last.

Usagi

Wow. So powerful and true. It gave me goosebumps!

 

[ynotzap]

To look at the situation in a secular manner it certainly looks selfish and thoughtless,because secularism judges by what it sees, but not necessarily by what is understood. or is true. As Christians we understand and believe that each baby given existence into this vale of tears, is a new soul destine to be united to God. It had a beginning in time as we all have, but we were created for eternity, and that’s our position. Only a fool says there is no God. We live according to our convictions. Existence of a person is the greatest good, even if mortal life is short or denied because of selfishness. With the birth of a child comes the existence of a soul, the nobelist part of man We all will lose our bodies sooner or later. But we understand our souls, us, are spiritual, body and spirit, body and soul. The secular world sees the immediate, and the present and judges by that standard, so it doesn’t understand.as Christian do. A natural man judges by natural things, a spiritual man, or supernatural thinking man judges by things that are spiritual, and the natural thinking man can not judge the spiritual thinking man.

 

[mikekle]

And you know the ironic thing. I got married when I was 19, going on 33 years. Still enjoy sex, so does the ball and chain, and its the consequences like childbirth that made our life better, stronger, and worth living. And even with the consequences sex is still great, maybe even better.

Because when you have love and marriage in a relationship, sex is meaningful and a gift from God that keeps getting better. When its out of marriage, it becomes nothing. Boring, etc. Go figure:shrug:

I agree with you on this, but when I was a younger man, I did not, I lived like many other teens and people in their early 20s, running around with anyone and everyone and jumping into bed left and right, usually with no commitments or even being BF/ GF…lots of one night stands and ‘friends with benefits’…Thankfully I outgrew that lifestyle, but funny thing is, I do remember those times and remember that the sex was always enjoyable and very pleasurable, if it was not meant to be in certain situations, why do so many younger people today seem to engage in this type of lifestyle?

Would not God make sure sex is NOT enjoyable unless under certain circumstances? Doesnt really make sense to me now, how can these people be sinning to this degree, and still be enjoying it, I would kinda think there would be some kind of natural ‘blocker’, or something similar.

 

[ynotzap]

Something does go on in the human personality when people indulge is the pleasures of sex out side of holy marriage… It was intended to be shared by a loving couple in marriage, which resulted in family solidarity. When indulged outside of this wholesome union, it serves to make one self-gratifying, and selfish. It leads to an unfulfilling and empty life-style. The woman becomes an object for one’s pleasures, and not for love and appreciation of her. The man becomes slave to his passions and it becomes difficult if not impossible for him to really relate in a wholesome way to a woman. She has shared something very holy and intimate, and made it a commodity for pleasure, and he leads a selfish life of sensual gratification. Both were created for something supremely better, but are trapped by their lust, and illusions of true love
I’m afraid many marriages are broken up because of the background of this life-style of “free love” When things are not done as God intended, there is always a negative consequence, you can count on it.

 

[ready]

One need only look around to get my meaning. Add to that the various theories of god, the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty.

Thoughts?

God has commanded that we be fruitful and multiply, so reproduction is not a selfish act of cruelty, but obedience to God and fidelity to Him. God bless you.

 

[Nihilist]

God has commanded that we be fruitful and multiply, so reproduction is not a selfish act of cruelty, but obedience to God and fidelity to Him. God bless you.

Of course, that’s not a commandment. If it were, the Pope, priests, nuns, monks, would all be living in deliberate and conscious disobedience to the commandment.

 

[ready]

Of course, that’s not a commandment. If it were, the Pope, priests, nuns, monks, would all be living in deliberate and conscious disobedience to the commandment.

He wasn’t talking about priests, nuns, and monks – he was talking about us, the laity. It is a command to us, not a mere suggestion.

 

[ynotzap]

I agree with you on this, but when I was a younger man, I did not, I lived like many other teens and people in their early 20s, running around with anyone and everyone and jumping into bed left and right, usually with no commitments or even being BF/ GF…lots of one night stands and ‘friends with benefits’…Thankfully I outgrew that lifestyle, but funny thing is, I do remember those times and remember that the sex was always enjoyable and very pleasurable, if it was not meant to be in certain situations, why do so many younger people today seem to engage in this type of lifestyle?

Would not God make sure sex is NOT enjoyable unless under certain circumstances? Doesnt really make sense to me now, how can these people be sinning to this degree, and still be enjoying it, I would kinda think there would be some kind of natural ‘blocker’, or something similar.

Young people engage in a life style that involves sex, simply because it does provide sensual pleasure, it was designed that way for the obvious reasons that this pleasure would lead to procreation which is the purpose of the pleasure, coupled with love, and responsibility as intended by God. Young people are not convinced of the seriousness of their actions. They are motivated by what they feel, and pay little if any attention to the purpose, or mature understanding of sex and it’s purpose. Young men are aggressive by nature and young women confuse the pleasure of sex with love, and all suffer from the consequences of original sin, that is, a proclivity toward sensual pleasure, as opposed to reason. From this affliction of human nature, many teenage pregnancies happen, many abortions are performed, and many marriages are broken up. Now should God take away the pleasure because it is misused? He did show His mercy when He merited the Holy Spirit for us. The Holy Spirit gives us the spiritual strength, and knowledge to conquer this affliction of original sin. Grace provides the strength of will, and reason to control this proclivity towards sensual pleasure. Sensual pleasure in not sinful, but actually can be meritorious if employed as God intended. It’s the improper use of it that makes it sinful. Sexual pleasure is a means to an end, and not the end itself.

 

[Nihilist]

He wasn’t talking about priests, nuns, and monks – he was talking about us, the laity. It is a command to us, not a mere suggestion.

No, Paul is actually talking to the laity when he advises against marriage. You have things mixed up. It was never a command. Read Jerome and Ambrose on the good of virginity. It is not directed only at priests, but to all Christians. As Christ said, “Whoever can accept it, let him accept it.” I suggest you talk to your local priest for clarification on the correct interpretation. You are giving a very unorthodox and dangerous view.

By the way, there are no separate commands which apply to laity and not to religious. Indeed, religious are simply people trying to follow the Gospel commands and counsels more radically and more fully.

 

[mikekle]

Young people engage in a life style that involves sex, simply because it does provide sensual pleasure, it was designed that way for the obvious reasons that this pleasure would lead to procreation which is the purpose of the pleasure, coupled with love, and responsibility as intended by God. Young people are not convinced of the seriousness of their actions. They are motivated by what they feel, and pay little if any attention to the purpose, or mature understanding of sex and it’s purpose. Young men are aggressive by nature and young women confuse the pleasure of sex with love, and all suffer from the consequences of original sin, that is, a proclivity toward sensual pleasure, as opposed to reason. From this affliction of human nature, many teenage pregnancies happen, many abortions are performed, and many marriages are broken up. Now should God take away the pleasure because it is misused? He did show His mercy when He merited the Holy Spirit for us. The Holy Spirit gives us the spiritual strength, and knowledge to conquer this affliction of original sin. Grace provides the strength of will, and reason to control this proclivity towards sensual pleasure. Sensual pleasure in not sinful, but actually can be meritorious if employed as God intended. It’s the improper use of it that makes it sinful. Sexual pleasure is a means to an end, and not the end itself.

I agree, but I wondered why God could not somehow make sex somehow uncomfortable or not pleasurable IF it was between 2 young people who were ONLY doing it to feel good? Surely God is capable of this, plus, people would start to only have sex when it for pro-creation AND they are doing it with their spouse, the others would quickly recognize sex is not worth doing if it doesnt provide that great feeling, this would solve alot of problems!

Sort of like how its said people who live their lives WITHOUT God in it, can NEVER be truly happy, no matter what they do or try, that particular ‘void’ can only be filled by God, same thing would apply to sex, ONLY those doing it for the right reasons would experience the great feelings, anyone else trying it, like for one night stands, or basic hookups that is purely for the feeling…these people would not find that sex enjoyable.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree, but I wondered why God could not somehow make sex somehow uncomfortable or not pleasurable IF it was between 2 young people who were ONLY doing it to feel good? Surely God is capable of this, plus, people would start to only have sex when it for pro-creation AND they are doing it with their spouse, the others would quickly recognize sex is not worth doing if it doesnt provide that great feeling, this would solve alot of problems!

Sort of like how its said people who live their lives WITHOUT God in it, can NEVER be truly happy, no matter what they do or try, that particular ‘void’ can only be filled by God, same thing would apply to sex, ONLY those doing it for the right reasons would experience the great feelings, anyone else trying it, like for one night stands, or basic hookups that is purely for the feeling…these people would not find that sex enjoyable.

Even children brought up with the right values are aware that unselfish love is far more fulfilling than bestial pleasure.

It is easy to suggest piecemeal improvements but to create a world is infinitely more difficult…

 

[ynotzap]

There is a feeling of real unfulfillment or emptiness in the sex act when it is done just to release biological tensions. The act was intended to be sacred, intimate in a loving relationship. All of this is absent and the act then becomes meaningless, except as a self-gratifying sexual tension relief. There is calm in the passions until the hormones build up again, we become slaves to our feelings, and they do the dictating in our lives. We need the grace of God to make our minds and wills stronger than the dictates of our strong sexual feelings. This is a real human struggle for those who realize the purpose of the sexual act and try to live by it, and to overcome these strong feelings. A good and holy life in not for sissies, but the rewards are abundant and out of this world.

 

[mikekle]

There is a feeling of real unfulfillment or emptiness in the sex act when it is done just to release biological tensions. The act was intended to be sacred, intimate in a loving relationship. All of this is absent and the act then becomes meaningless, except as a self-gratifying sexual tension relief. There is calm in the passions until the hormones build up again, we become slaves to our feelings, and they do the dictating in our lives. We need the grace of God to make our minds and wills stronger than the dictates of our strong sexual feelings. This is a real human struggle for those who realize the purpose of the sexual act and try to live by it, and to overcome these strong feelings. A good and holy life in not for sissies, but the rewards are abundant and out of this world.

Why do so many young people actively go out every single friday and saturday night JUST looking for one night stands then? If this type of sex was truly that unfulfilling and empty, Id imagine most people would just pass on it altogether.

Maybe God should have made the level of emptiness and unfulfillment a bit more extreme and then NO ONE would go out searching for one night stands.To make that kind of sex physically enjoyable, only gives more ammo to Satan imo, and is kind of strange when you think about it, why would God allow such a thing in the first place?

 

[ynotzap]

Captivated by the pleasure leads them on. One can not judge the spiritual condition while being involved with in the pleasure. When the spiritual life is united to the sensual life in proper relationship then the sex act is truly complete. We don’t live by feelings alone, but with spirit also, reason, intelligence. It’s the spiritual life that is void, the life that incorporates true love, and fidelity, responsibility, and chastity, all the virtues needed for living a wholesome, holy life. This is what I mean by being empty. It’s an illusion to think giving one over completely to sensual pleasure brings true happiness, joy and fulfillment, the devil knows how to deceive. It’s the same illusion concerning drugs which have dire consequences. Yet observing society we see many people with these illusions ,and we do see the negative consequences.

 

[ready]

No, Paul is actually talking to the laity when he advises against marriage. You have things mixed up. It was never a command. Read Jerome and Ambrose on the good of virginity. It is not directed only at priests, but to all Christians. As Christ said, “Whoever can accept it, let him accept it.” I suggest you talk to your local priest for clarification on the correct interpretation. You are giving a very unorthodox and dangerous view.

By the way, there are no separate commands which apply to laity and not to religious. Indeed, religious are simply people trying to follow the Gospel commands and counsels more radically and more fully.

I am not talking about Paul. I am talking about God and what he said to Adam and to Eve, which is intended for all married couples. God bless you.

 

[Nihilist]

I am not talking about Paul. I am talking about God and what he said to Adam and to Eve, which is intended for all married couples. God bless you.

Yes- the intention to reproduce is a condition of valid marriage. But there is no command to ‘get married’ if you are single- in fact, Paul advises the opposite. I am advocating celibate chastity as a real a valid vocation. The vocation to celibacy can still apply to people who aren’t called to priesthood, or membership of a religious order.

There is no command or counsel to reproduce, just to boost the number of human beings, or even to boost the number of Catholics. God is not ‘breeding us up’ like cattle. I think this was a common error in the past.

 

[Bradski]

Self control gives us all the ability to make that choice. No contraception is required.

Indeed it does. But the fact that you have a God-given urge to mate with as many females as possible does make it somewhat less than ideal as a means to not have children.

---

In the world today yes it does. But I totally disagree with everything you said. My Dad worked in the coal mine, raised 5 kids and my Mom did not work. Times were tough, we made it,

Whats more important a baby or a lap top?

I don’t want to get into a Pythonesque argument as to who had it tougher (‘I actually lived in paper bag in middle of road’ - which will mean next to nothing if you don’t know the sketch), but I wasn’t really talking about doing it tough. I was talking about no soup, not just thinning it out a little. and war zones as opposed to digging coal.

If you lived in Angola and you and your partner were all but starving, then having a kid so that you could feel all maternal and loving would be a bad thing to do.