Knowing what we know for certain, is reproduction a selfish and cruel act?

[Nihilist]

What?! Speak for yourself! I absolutely love life. There is little that could happen to me that would make me think of my existance as an “ill thing”. If you really feel this way, you should probably see a doctor.

We are all at different spiritual stages. Depression actually comes from having unrealistically high expectation of life, and feeling failure or disappointment that it does not live up to expectations. This is why there is so much depression in the modern world- people are taught by the consumerist maching- “You SHOULD be enjoying things more!”

In the past- in the Middle Ages, for example- people assumed life was simply labor and struggle, for we “poor banished childred of Eve”, and consequently depression virtually did not exist.

 

[Allegra]

We are all at different spiritual stages. Depression actually comes from having unrealistically high expectation of life, and feeling failure or disappointment that it does not live up to expectations. This is why there is so much depression in the modern world- people are taught by the consumerist maching- “You SHOULD be enjoying things more!”

In the past- in the Middle Ages, for example- people assumed life was simply labor and struggle, for we “poor banished childred of Eve”, and consequently depression virtually did not exist.

Actually, medical evidence suggests that depression comes from imbalances of chemicals and hormones in the brain and in some cases, physical injury to the brain. It is probably more prevelant in the modern world because of the existance of harmful chemicals in our food and water, but it has never been virtually non-existant. The fact that people had to work harder to survive at one point does not suggest that they did not seek and experience joy either. Seriously. Your philosophy is abnormal. People do not “know this in their hearts.” I’m not sayiing this to criticize you, but to inform you in the hope that you might seek some help. Most people really do NOT think this way and it isn’t any form of self-deception that they don’t. It is actually possible to be happy.

 

[captainrick]

There is a stark contrast between chosing not to reproduce, and advocating that reproduction is evil. If you can’t see that, then you have blinded yourself, and should seek a physician to remove the log from your eye,

Feel free to do that, the rest of us, meanwhile, will continue to welcome new children to the world, and teach them the joys of our life.

Sounds good to me too! I’ve been through lots of hardship and illness, but not a day goes by that I don’t find a lot of enjoyment in life, especially when shared with friends and family. Anyone who wants to sulk in a corner until they cease to exist, is welcome to do so.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What you say is, for me, the greatest absolute moral certainty. I could perhaps forgive myself murder or theft, but I could never, ever, ever forgive myself reproduction.

I don’t try to convince others, nor do I judge others. But it is a serious isssue- the most serious issue. To impose life on another- that is a very, very, very grave thing to do. We can live out our own lives in Stoic resignation. But to pass it on, potentially to many generations…

This matter goes way beyond religion. You may or may not believe in God. But each one of us knows in our hearts that life is an ill thing…To deny it is to lie to yourself.

What you say is inconsistent with the Catholic faith. God said human life was “very good.”

If you feel it is not, this is almost certainly because someone has hurt you very, very badly. You need to confess this hurt, fully experience the hurt, grieve the hurt, forgive the hurt, and surrender the hurt to the care of Jesus.

The last step is the hardest one. I lost my father at a young age, and I still haven’t fully surrendered the loss. But I’ve done so at least enough so that I can enjoy life without him.

There’s also a possibility that you are, even now, being badly hurt or suffering. That is a different case, but there is help for that case too.

Stoicism, by the way, did not teach that life was miserable. Quite the contrary, it taught that life would be perfect and wonderful if we simply didn’t attach ourselves to “things going our way”. It’s not a perfect philosophy, but it is a very helpful one, in its place.

 

[balto]

It’s interesting to see the different points of view on this subject in this thread. I think it highlights the absolute necessity of Christ and how powerful the arguments of Christianity really are. Cue in Pascal’s Wager and his Pensees.

We all can recognize how broken this world is and how it could be better. But the OP describes himself as a deist and other posters seem to have similar sentiments. Well if you’re starting from that premise, then yes, the world sucks. It’s bad and it’s always going to be bad. We all want the Truth, but we can never have it with certainty. We all want happiness, but we all know that we cannot get it. There’s always going to be something missing, so you may as well accept nihilism because we’re all going to get to a point eventually where we’ll say “okay, I’ve had enough of this, I’m done.” That we might die in a finite lifespan before we reach this conclusion is irrelevant, if given an eternity, we’d eventually get fed up with all of this.

But the Christian recognizes that our desire for happiness is something that is actually achievable, but it’s only reachable if Christ is who He claimed to be. We can’t get to God on our own, so God has to come to us and get us to Him. Any Heaven we’d create would really turn out to be Hell, but yet our desire for something that “eye has not seen, ear has not heard” is real and Christ is the key to that Kingdom. The world has lots of evil and suffering in it, that’s a fact. But the non-Christian says that this is the natural state of things, so there’s no hope. And if this is the natural state of things then there really is no hope. But the Christian says that we are in a fallen state, the natural state is not like this, and Christ can restore us to our natural state.

Pascal would say to the skeptic “look, your logic makes perfect sense here, but is this really good for you to believe this? Christianity is the only worldview that correctly diagnoses our human condition and is the only worldview that actually offers a solution to it that would work if true. Why not at least try it since it’s your only way out of this mess?”

 

[tonyrey]

One need only look around to get my meaning. Add to that the various theories of god, the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty.

Thoughts?

You have never stated that you wish you hadn’t been born yet you seem to believe others should be deprived of all the opportunities for enjoyment you have had - and possibly more… I think it is selfish not to have children unless a person has a better reason than you have given.

 

[fred_conty]

One need only look around to get my meaning. Add to that the various theories of god, the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty.

Thoughts?

“my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

May God our Father give you grace to find peace.

 

[rcwitness]

]“Woe to those who call good evil, or evil good.”
-Our Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus also warned that a day would come when people would declare blessed those wombs which never bore children, and those breasts which never suckled. We are truly living in those times.

I believe that was Isaiah in Ch. 5 vs 20

I thought John the Baptist quoted it too. Maybe that was just in the movie Jesus of Nazareth? Don’t have a bible right now.

 

[mommamaree]

I believe that was Isaiah in Ch. 5 vs 20

I thought John the Baptist quoted it too. Maybe that was just in the movie Jesus of Nazareth? Don’t have a bible right now.

You are absolutely correct. I went and checked. I was confused, because I was recalling the many “Woe…” verses in Matthew 23. I had mistakenly thought the Isaiah “Woe…” was in Matthew 23 as well, but it was not.

Of course, Jesus is the Word of God, so…

But thanks for catching it. I appreciate it and I learned something.

 

[Bradski]

If we couldn’t afford to look after a child, yet had one because we simply wanted to, then I believe that could be classed as a selfish decision.

Let’s face it, however we control our reproduction, we have as many children as we can expect to raise in reasonable comfort. Anyone who is reading this can afford a laptop or a PC or an iPad and an internet connection, so I assume that you are all in the happy position to have that choice. But if you are living in abject poverty in a war zone then why on earth would you even consider having children?

Contraception gives us all the ability to make that choice. To deny it’s availability seems perverse in the extreme.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I am also strongly opposed to contraception, IVF, and certainly abortion (which is barbaric).

We are born in sin, Original Sin is transmitted by the conjugal act (this is Catechism). The consequence of Original Sin is that, during this life, man is bound to labor and suffer, and to die. He is also prone to committing further personal sins, making himself liable to eternal damnation

Some people chose celibacy. They do not transmit Original Sin, they accept the labor and suffering which they, children of Eve, have inherited, but do not pass it on.

The ability to chose celibacy is a grace. “Let him who can accept it, accept it”, as Christ says. I do not judge those who are not able to follow what Christ recommended.

It is true. Nevertheless, Christ never said it is evil to bring children into the world. On the contrary, He said, “Bring all the children to me”, and “unless you are like a child, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven”.

Original sin is overcome by baptism. Continual sin can be overcome by the sacraments and by grace, and God’s mercy in His own ways. And while many saints have said , and our Lord said, too, that the way to Heaven is narrow and few enter it, it is not impossible.

And God, in His glory, must think that those who do enter are worth the trouble.

 

[davidv]

If we couldn’t afford to look after a child, yet had one because we simply wanted to, then I believe that could be classed as a selfish decision.

Let’s face it, however we control our reproduction, we have as many children as we can expect to raise in reasonable comfort. Anyone who is reading this can afford a laptop or a PC or an iPad and an internet connection, so I assume that you are all in the happy position to have that choice. But if you are living in abject poverty in a war zone then why on earth would you even consider having children?

Contraception gives us all the ability to make that choice. To deny it’s availability seems perverse in the extreme.

Self control gives us all the ability to make that choice. No contraception is required.

 

[mikekle]

Jesus also warned that a day would come when people would declare blessed those wombs which never bore children, and those breasts which never suckled. We are truly living in those times.

So, what does this mean? Why would people consider a women who never had children to be blessed? In our times many people may say women like this are lucky, but not really ‘blessed’…strange choice of words imo.

Can anyone explain?

 

[mommamaree]

So, what does this mean? Why would people consider a women who never had children to be blessed? In our times many people may say women like this are lucky, but not really ‘blessed’…strange choice of words imo.

Can anyone explain?

It is the world turned upside down. Nowadays, people don’t just sin, they sin and celebrate it and call it good, and denigrate anyone who attempts virtue. G.K.Chesterton spoke of how revolutionary and counter-cultural pursuing virtue is. He said that today, cultivating virtue has all the thrill of pursuing vice. What a statement! But it is true. Our society not only does not pursue the true, the good, and the beautiful. It is much worse than that. Our society wouldn’t even recognize the true, the good, and the beautiful if it walked up and smacked them in the face.
Jesus, in the context of His statement, was referring to the time to come later in the first century, when Jerusalem was sacked and the Temple was destroyed, if I recall correctly. But as with all important truths given to us by the Bible, especially those spoken as prophecy, it is perennial. Things in our world have degraded to the point where sterility is sought after and celebrated and seen as a blessing. What was once a curse is now seen as a blessing! It is very discouraging sometimes to see the Culture of Death all around. And I think the only reason they would refer to a sterile women as lucky, instead of blessed, is because “blessed” acknowledges God and “lucky” does not.

 

[Amandil]

One need only look around to get my meaning. Add to that the various theories of god, the uncertainty, and I think that an argument can be made that producing new, sentient life on this planet is a selfish act of cruelty.

Thoughts?

Clearly this is an argument against your own religion of deism as well.

 

[mikekle]

It is the world turned upside down. Nowadays, people don’t just sin, they sin and celebrate it and call it good, and denigrate anyone who attempts virtue. G.K.Chesterton spoke of how revolutionary and counter-cultural pursuing virtue is. He said that today, cultivating virtue has all the thrill of pursuing vice. What a statement! But it is true. Our society not only does not pursue the true, the good, and the beautiful. It is much worse than that. Our society wouldn’t even recognize the true, the good, and the beautiful if it walked up and smacked them in the face.
Jesus, in the context of His statement, was referring to the time to come later in the first century, when Jerusalem was sacked and the Temple was destroyed, if I recall correctly. But as with all important truths given to us by the Bible, especially those spoken as prophecy, it is perennial. Things in our world have degraded to the point where sterility is sought after and celebrated and seen as a blessing. What was once a curse is now seen as a blessing! It is very discouraging sometimes to see the Culture of Death all around. And I think the only reason they would refer to a sterile women as lucky, instead of blessed, is because “blessed” acknowledges God and “lucky” does not.

That makes sense, we are definitely living in a world where most people see evil as good! Birth control has allowed LOTS of people to enjoy sex with none of the consequences, like childbirth!

I dont know about anyone else, but Im amazed God has not destroyed one or two US cities in modern times, we know he destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah, and some other nearby cities for the way they lived, how long before he says enough is enough in our times I wonder? LOL I think this would be a blessing if it happened, it would prove to alot of people that choices DO matter and how they choose to live DOES matter, but without it, things will keep getting worse and worse.

I guess what we really need to know is how long Sodom and Gomorrah existed before God destroyed them, this would give us a time line and we could speculate how long it takes before God takes action.

 

[Nihilist]

That makes sense, we are definitely living in a world where most people see evil as good! Birth control has allowed LOTS of people to enjoy sex with none of the consequences, like childbirth!

I dont know about anyone else, but Im amazed God has not destroyed one or two US cities in modern times, we know he destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah, and some other nearby cities for the way they lived, how long before he says enough is enough in our times I wonder? LOL I think this would be a blessing if it happened, it would prove to alot of people that choices DO matter and how they choose to live DOES matter, but without it, things will keep getting worse and worse.

I guess what we really need to know is how long Sodom and Gomorrah existed before God destroyed them, this would give us a time line and we could speculate how long it takes before God takes action.

Yes. it would be opportune for God to destroy cities. Yet, He inflicts great punishment in not destroying them. Is not a place like San Fransisco or New York simply hell on earth?

Let’s have a return to basic decency- if you can support a child well, and offer it a good life- get married and have children. If not, be single and celibate. Birth control has given rise to dysfunctional relationships, sin, cultural degeneration, etc.

I stand by my view that it is better not to have children. But if you are going to have them- do it the right way- get married, and provide a secure environment. If you cant’ do this, give up sex- it won’t kill you…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Is not a place like San Fransisco or New York simply hell on earth? . . .

I know this is a serious topic, but your comment reminded me of a joke concerning littering in New York. Someone scolded the particular comedian about his throwing a wrapper on the street. The reprimand had to do with his dropping something where it did not belong and ruining the environment. It led to the consideration that New York itself was something artificial that had been foisted on to that fragile environment, destroying its natural beauty, perhaps forever. The inevitable conclusion, was that there was no better place to litter as New York was one enormous piece of litter.

 

[tonyrey]

oldcelt

 

[rinnie]

If we couldn’t afford to look after a child, yet had one because we simply wanted to, then I believe that could be classed as a selfish decision.

Let’s face it, however we control our reproduction, we have as many children as we can expect to raise in reasonable comfort. Anyone who is reading this can afford a laptop or a PC or an iPad and an internet connection, so I assume that you are all in the happy position to have that choice. But if you are living in abject poverty in a war zone then why on earth would you even consider having children?

Contraception gives us all the ability to make that choice. To deny it’s availability seems perverse in the extreme.

In the world today yes it does. But I totally disagree with everything you said. My Dad worked in the coal mine, raised 5 kids and my Mom did not work. Times were tough, we made it,

I had 2 kids, had just as much struggle, only I had more, my kids got more. It all comes down to what Dad said, you add one more cup of water to the soup, you have less material things but much more Love in the house.

Whats more important a baby or a lap top?