Kreeft: Pro-Abort Catholics More Damaging than Sex-Abuse Scandal

[estesbob]

I was wondering how long it would take for SOMEBODY to drag in child molesters into this arguement. Well, given the Catholic Church’s record in covering up, shoelding, and stonewalling for its own child molesting priests, why should I pay attention to the moral teachings of the Catholic Church?:tsktsk::tsktsk::tsktsk:

(Well, I do, because I know full well that the Church itself cannot sin, but we do have sinners, and that can include Bishops. But many non-Catholics do not understand that, and regard the Church as full of hipocrits.):crying:

And now that the child molesters have been dragged in, can Hitler, the Nazis, and the word :holocaust" be far behind?

and molestation into it-that’s what the thread us about Child molestation being as bad as abortion . Some evidently believe we must Always reject those who support the former but can empower those who support the latter as long as it is politically expedient

 

[3DOCTORS]

Both abortion and sexual abuse of children are intrinsic evils.

How you can say one is more damaging than the other is an attempt in denial of the damage done.

Jim

Well put. Evil is evil. Although I like Dr. Kreeft, I think he made a tactical error in linking these two in such a context. :twocents: People in secular society are already using the scandals as a battering ram against the teachings of the Church, and I think that’s one of probably several reasons to try to address each painful area separately as much as possible. They’re serious problems and each deserves serious and focused attention.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Its quite simple:

Voting: It can be corrected by the clergy giving instruction.

Child Abuse: The Clergy are the ones doing the abuse.

Voting: Victim is 18+ yrs old and is being swayed by a politiican who does not speak for the Church.

Child Abuse: The Clergy is going after a child who trusts the priests completely as they are being taught that all things true come from the Church

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Which means you cannot understand that when most Catholics vote Democrat, they are NOT voting for abortion. They are voting for a wide range of issues supported by the Democrats and opposed by the Republicans.

If you vote for a candidate that supports abortion. You ARE voting for abortion. PERIOD.

Its quite simple:

Child Abuse: The Clergy are the ones doing the abuse.
Child Abuse: The Clergy is going after a child who trusts the priests completely as they are being taught that all things true come from the Church

No, this isn’t the problem. The problem is, these people are being TOLD that abortion is ok by other “catholic” politicians, that were told that it was ok to be pro-abortion.

What does the child in the womb get to say? Does that child get a say? That child trusts its mother completely.

 

[mommamia]

Sorry, there is a big difference between someone who “talks the talk”, and someone who “walks the walk”.

Are these “pro-life” Catholics guilty of actually performing or obtaining abortion? Its not the same.

Because I’m pretty sure those priests didn’t just “think about” molesting children.

But the Bishop’s did allow this evil to continue, so I guess that the pro-choice politicians are guilty of abortion the same way the Bishop’s are guilty of child molestation.

The sex abuse scandal has cost the Church so much, not just money. So many left the Church, many more will never listen to her words.

And this Bishop ought to know this. His words sounded callous and uncaring to the many victims of this evil. He just gave the enemy’s of the Church some valuable ammo.

 

[Petergee]

Its quite simple:

Voting: It can be corrected by the clergy giving instruction.

Really? Would you please tell the Fathers how they should word their instructions to the “Catholic” politicians who vote to legalise abortion? Because all the instructions they have issued have had no effect on these people, in fact some of them have in response accused the clergy of not knowing what Catholciism really teaches and claimed that it’s perferctly OK to be a Catholic and be pro-abortion.

Child Abuse: The Clergy are the ones doing the abuse.

Voting: Victim is 18+ yrs old and is being swayed by a politiican who does not speak for the Church.

Correction: the victims, millions of them, are a few days to a few months old.

Child Abuse: The Clergy is going after a child who trusts the priests completely as they are being taught that all things true come from the Church

Correction: Not “The Clergy” but a tiny minority of the clergy, in fact a lowewr proportion than the proportion of married/defacto laymen who sexually abuse children (and the victims of the latter are on average younger and on average suffer more severe and frequent abuse.)

 

[Petergee]

Sorry, there is a big difference between someone who “talks the talk”, and someone who “walks the walk”.

Are these “pro-life” Catholics guilty of actually performing or obtaining abortion? Its not the same.

Because I’m pretty sure those priests didn’t just “think about” molesting children.

But the Bishop’s did allow this evil to continue, so I guess that the pro-choice politicians are guilty of abortion the same way the Bishop’s are guilty of child molestation.

The sex abuse scandal has cost the Church so much, not just money. So many left the Church, many more will never listen to her words.

And this Bishop ought to know this. His words sounded callous and uncaring to the many victims of this evil. He just gave the enemy’s of the Church some valuable ammo.

Somebody who votes to legalise pedophilia is worse than someone who commits pedophilia. And Mr Kreeft is not a bishop or a clergyman of any kind.

 

[Petergee]

I can’t agree with Kreeft. It is widely known and understood that the Catholic Church is against abortion. When prominent public Catholics come out in favor of abortion, that reflects on them individually. The sex scandals indicted the institution and integrity of the Church - a far broader source of damage.

But insofar as they did, it was a false indictment. The sex abuses and the cover-ups of it were done in defiance of the directives of the institution. These sins are indictments of the individuals who committed them, not of the Curch as an institution.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Are these “pro-life” Catholics guilty of actually performing or obtaining abortion? Its not the same.
And this Bishop ought to know this. His words sounded callous and uncaring to the many victims of this evil. He just gave the enemy’s of the Church some valuable ammo.

How many victims of evil from abortion are there? You don’t hear about it, because they weren’t given the opportunity to speak. MILLIONS upon MILLIONS.

It’s on thing to support something and keep it to yourself. It’s completely another to teach that an abomination is “ok”. This promotes the idea that killing children is ok.

What is abortion? KILLING children. Then, it’s not just a few priests doing it. It’s lots of catholics. This doesn’t include the number who killed using birth control. I believe you are making abortion seem far more benign than it really is.

There devil, through the media, has used pedophilia to cause millions to leave the Church, when, in fact, the instances of pedophilia are not terribly many. The media carries it as a way to smear the Church.

Abortion and use of birth control, caused by this push to make it seem “alright”, has caused millions of catholics to fall, and millions to be killed, scandalized, maimed, victims of violent acts, etc. It has also caused a chain reaction in the Church causing less respect for human life. You can’t say that pedophilia, although thoroughly evil, has created that much of a footprint.

 

[SouthCatholic]

Well put. Evil is evil. Although I like Dr. Kreeft,**** I think he made a tactical error in linking these two in such a context. :twocents: People in secular society are already using the scandals as a battering ram against the teachings of the Church****, and I think that’s one of probably several reasons to try to address each painful area separately as much as possible. They’re serious problems and each deserves serious and focused attention.

^^^^^This!!!

And it gives pro-aborts another opportunity to point out that we only care about children when they are still in the womb. He definitely should not have connected abortion and molestation in the same context.

 

[estesbob]

^^^^^This!!!

And it gives pro-aborts another opportunity to point out that we only care about children when they are still in the womb. He definitely should not have connected abortion and molestation in the same context.

Hes pointed out that gthe po-abortion Catholic does more harn to the Church the Homosexual Proest scandal. It needs to be said over and over as way to many Catholcs twist themselved into knots trying to rationalize supporting those who support aborton. I ask again -given the rationale of the pro-choice catholic could not a catholic vote for a canidate who supported legalized pediohilia if they though he was “right” on the other isses?

Abortion is the most egregious form of child molestation there is.

 

[exoflare]

the emocitions you hide behind

lol qft

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I don’t even quite know what to say.

IMO, this comes off as somehow trying to “play down” the seriousness of the sex abuse.

You can in no way say that what the lay people do reflect on the Church nearly as much as what our supposed leaders have done.

You’ve expressed how I view this argument. Obviously any attempt to use the sex abuse scandal as a measuring stick is just plain dumb.

Both of these issues are an abomination in the sight of the Lord and a stench in his nostrils.

 

[graceandglory]

Great story: Kreeft: Pro-Abort Catholics More Damaging than Sex-Abuse Scandal

I might agree.

 

[estesbob]

You’ve expressed how I view this argument. Obviously any attempt to use the sex abuse scandal as a measuring stick is just plain dumb.

Both of these issues are an abomination in the sight of the Lord and a stench in his nostrils.

So how many Catholics do you know who say it’s ok to vote for a pro-pediophilia canidate as long as they are “right” on the other issues. Kreeft was absolutely right Catholics who support abortion do more damage to the Church than the homosexual Priest scandal did

 

[Birdpreacher]

If you vote for a candidate that supports abortion. You ARE voting for abortion. PERIOD.

No, this isn’t the problem. The problem is, these people are being TOLD that abortion is ok by other “catholic” politicians, that were told that it was ok to be pro-abortion.

What does the child in the womb get to say? Does that child get a say? That child trusts its mother completely.

I agree with you that the un-born child is the one who pays the most in abortion, however lets look at who the one committing the sin is: an uniformed/selfish mother or a priest who has been given the authority to speak for the church.(who is more culpable I cant possibly answer)

But even this is besides the point as the original topic is about “Catholic” politicians who do not speak for the Church taking advantage of uneducated Catholic Adults in regards to pro-life issues. The Church is charged with teaching the flock on morals.

 

[Birdpreacher]

So how many Catholics do you know who say it’s ok to vote for a pro-pediophilia canidate as long as they are “right” on the other issues. Kreeft was absolutely right Catholics who support abortion do more damage to the Church than the homosexual Priest scandal did

LOL huh? Pro-pedaphillia candidate? What in world makes you think that Anyone would vote for a pro-pedo candidate?

The Question is clear which hurt the Church more: clergy abuse or pro-abortion politicians who swindle uninformed Catholics.

They are both ugly but one undeniable difference exists: The people are instructed by the Clergy as to how to exercise their conscious when voting. Some of these same clergy who we entrust with shaping the concise of adult voters, were sexually abusing defenseless kids.

 

[rlg94086]

LOL huh? Pro-pedaphillia candidate? What in world makes you think that Anyone would vote for a pro-pedo candidate?

Your “LOL” is fascinating. You find it utterly absurd to think of a Catholic (or “Anyone”) voting pro-pedophilia (as do I), but you have no such sense of absurdity regarding Catholics voting in favor of abortion. Why is that? Is the legality of killing an innocent human being just a matter of conscience?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I don’t even quite know what to say.

IMO, this comes off as somehow trying to “play down” the seriousness of the sex abuse.

I felt similarly. If his goal was to make an academic point then I sympathize, but I think the ideal thing would be to avoid making such comparisons.

It can (not necessarily should but can) be viewed as a callous thing to say, especially if it’s a victim or relative of a victim listening, and I would not fault them for looking at it that way.

I’m sure he meant well, but I hope he avoids future comparisons like this.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Your “LOL” is fascinating. You find it utterly absurd to think of a Catholic (or “Anyone”) voting pro-pedophilia (as do I), but you have no such sense of absurdity regarding Catholics voting in favor of abortion. Why is that? Is the legality of killing an innocent human being just a matter of conscience?

That is because the catholics voting pro-choice are* misinformed* Catholics. Its just as absurd as the pro-pedo stance to imagine a fully informed Catholic voting pro-choice.

USCCB Forming Conscious for Faithful Citizenship
faithfulcitizenship.org/church/statements

Catholics are taught by the Clergy as to how to exercise their right to vote in a moral manner consistent with Church Teachings. If all these misinformed Catholics are voting pro-choice, its sad but not tragic as the clergy are charged with clearing up misinformation on Life Issues.

My take: The Catholics who vote pro-choice are Cafeteria Catholics who do not submit to teachings of the church, thus a mere politician can influence them more than the teachings of the RCC.