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Aquinas62
Guest
on this I agree with you… It comes down to freedom of association. I just cant stand the “fear” or “I’m afraid” argument.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
I agree, but this is not about your or my fears. It is about obeying the bishops. All the Second Amendment arguments in the world mean nothing next to our responsibility to the Church and its hierarchy. Non-denominational congregations can fire their pastors if he says something they don’t like, and they’re not obliged to obey the pastor in any case. That isn’t the same with Catholics.
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Aquinas62
Guest
I can’t argue that point Rich… I would obey their directive as an obedient catholic.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Sure. Of course, when you get into your car after Mass, you are perfectly justified in packing anywhere that you’re not explicitly forbidden to do so.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
If our local parishes were as well protected as the Vatican then I would have no problem with a “request” to keep guns out of the building. But I am sure that most parishes don’t have the money to hire protection. We in the USA said before 911 that the violence was overseas and not our business. Well it has come to the USA and we need to be watchful and careful to the best of our ability.
I would never use violence to protect “stuff” but protecting my or another’s life is another situation. When the POPE is celebrating the MASS his armed guards are there in fact there are even snipers on the roof and they are not there for show, they are there to protect the POPE and those at the MASS from those that wish to do them harm.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
Each of the places you have mentioned have the obligation to provide for the safety of those that enter. If you follow this then the parishes that ban self protection must provide that protection. This is where the situation becomes a moral obligation. We are morally obligated to protect people from abuse and violence.
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bethndanny
Guest
Like I said before I am not advocating for people to ignore what the Bishops have said. I am saying that I think the Bishops have made a poor choice. I would obey the directive, but I don’t think it should be in place.
The only reason I entered the debate was because of the people who seemed afraid of people who legally carry weapons places. Posters repeatedly saying they would be uncomfortable or bothered by knowing someone at Church had a gun. I do not understand that at all. The fact is, by banning them, you’re only keeping people who wouldn’t be targeting innocent people from carrying them.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
One stays with Holy Mother Church and if need be takes problems to the Vatican. Never in my life would I suggest that someone leave Holy Mother Church.
As to “must allow” it refers to the opportunity of others to harm you if they desire to do so. I believe you knew what I meant. As a small, older woman if someone wanted to physically harm me I would have no way of truly defending myself with some form of mechanical means.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
Where we live there is only word of mouth and the knowledge of who does and does not own guns. We have no local police, no county police and our Township does not provide us information on what happens. So when you hear of the homes that are broke into, home invasions and store robberies you know. We have six gun clubs in a 7 mile radius. So stats no personal experience yes.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
You are wrong. Liquor stores, banks, saloons, courthouses, airports, bus stations and even my family at home do not provide for the safety of those that enter. Their rules and mine are intended to keep all weapons off the premises.
Faulty reasoning. By the way, you haven’t yet provided a single piece of evidence to back up any of your assertions thus far.
As for protection of the congregation at Mass, please cite the last time armed men burst into a Catholic Church in this country during Mass to rob them or otherwise cause mayhem - say within the last 110 years. You won’t be able to. So much for the need for parishes to provide armed guards during Mass.
Let’s stick to reality, not fantasies.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
A weapon (any weapon) left in a car or truck is more dangerous then one that is on the person sitting next to you. Cars and trucks are stolen and/or broken into alot (no I don’t have the stats) just read your newspaper and watch the news.Sure. Of course, when you get into your car after Mass, you are perfectly justified in packing anywhere that you’re not explicitly forbidden to do so.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
I, too, don’t always agree with the bishops, but do obey, even reluctantly.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
How about locking it in a lockbox affixed to the car’s trunk? No one is advocating leaving a weapon on the seat of one’s car. Better still to leave the thing at home until one returns from Mass. Then one can wear it around the house all day as protection.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
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melensdad
Guest
One thing that seems to be missing from this discussion is the number of people who carry daily. In my state the percentage of people who have licenses to carry a handgun is roughly 10-to-11% of the adult population.
Odds are you are in the grocery store with several people carrying guns. Odds are someone walking into the bank has a gun. Odds are a couple parents/grandparents at the little league field have guns with them.
Oh, and for what it is worth, those “NO GUNS” signs do not carry any force of law in my state so I am allowed to legally ignore them while I walk into businesses that post them.
Odds are you are in the grocery store with several people carrying guns. Odds are someone walking into the bank has a gun. Odds are a couple parents/grandparents at the little league field have guns with them.
Interesting because I am just a regular citizen and in my state I am allowed to carry in Liquor Stores, Banks, Saloons and Bus Stations. Further, I am also allowed to carry into PARTS of airports. As for court houses, no I can’t carry there, but I can carry into town hall and I carried every day onto school property when I dropped off and picked up my daughter.
Oh, and for what it is worth, those “NO GUNS” signs do not carry any force of law in my state so I am allowed to legally ignore them while I walk into businesses that post them.
Faulty premise. I have not carried into church for the “protection of the congregation” but rather I have carried into church for MY protection and the protection of MY FAMILY. If I happen to also provide a bit of protection for anyone else that is a positive, but unintentional consequence. The fact that I carry a gun may be beneficial for society, but it is out of pure self interest for me and my family that I do so.
The presumption that the member came from home and is going back home is faulty. Many of us go off to work, shopping, to breakfast, etc after mass. Some come from work. While its very likely that that church itself is a reasonably safe place, its not necessarily true that the places we came from or are going to are safe.
True. As long as the gun is in the holster it cannot fire, if it is concealed it won’t be noticed, and its clearly safe from theft!
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Byzman
Guest
Two questions for all those anti-gunners in church. What to you people think a gun ban for a church will do? Will it be much safer? Serious answers please!
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JReducation
Guest
I hope that everyone realizes that this conversation is all hypothetical. Once the diocesan bishop has banned guns from his churches, if you are caught the Church has the right to have you arrested, charged and prosecuted. In some states this constitutes a felony.
It’s also hypothetical because the Vatican is not going to contradict the bishop on this one. This is a prudential call that the bishop has a right to make. The Vatican is not going to step all over his rights. There is no right in canon law or in theology that says that people may bring weapons to church.
If we go way back to the traditional understanding of the bishop, where there is the bishop, there is the Church. That has not changed. He may be totally over the top on this, but he is not asking people to commit a sin. Therefore, he has to be obeyed. It’s important to remember, that sin has to be defined by the Church, not the faithful. I can’t argue that I won’t obey my bishop because I BELIEVE THIS IS A SIN. That won’t hold water. The Church can tell me that I have to educate my conscience and then she’ll move along to the next issue.
There are two things that one can do, if this is so important that you cannot go to the Eucharist without an internal conflict over the gun.
I’ll close this post with an old story. I was at a chancery in diocese X. I was wearing my habit. While on the elevator the chancellor got on. We said hello and he proceeded to tell me that the proper dress for the chancery is a Roman collar, not a habit. Technically speaking, religious need not wear a Roman collar. We can wear a habit. However, canonically speaking, the chancery belongs to the bishop, not the faithful. I’m a religious, not the bishop. So I never went to the chancery again in my habit. I always wore a Roman collar from that day forward. Whenever I wore the collar everyone knew I was on my way to the chancery.
It’s their diocese, not mine. I just live and work here. This is not a sin. Therefore, let it go so you can have some internal silence to pray.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
It’s also hypothetical because the Vatican is not going to contradict the bishop on this one. This is a prudential call that the bishop has a right to make. The Vatican is not going to step all over his rights. There is no right in canon law or in theology that says that people may bring weapons to church.
If we go way back to the traditional understanding of the bishop, where there is the bishop, there is the Church. That has not changed. He may be totally over the top on this, but he is not asking people to commit a sin. Therefore, he has to be obeyed. It’s important to remember, that sin has to be defined by the Church, not the faithful. I can’t argue that I won’t obey my bishop because I BELIEVE THIS IS A SIN. That won’t hold water. The Church can tell me that I have to educate my conscience and then she’ll move along to the next issue.
There are two things that one can do, if this is so important that you cannot go to the Eucharist without an internal conflict over the gun.
- Appeal to the Sacred Congregation of Bishops. Be prepared to leave your gun at home until they decide. The bishop has the upper hand unatil Rome decides.
- Attend mass in another diocese that does not have such a restriction or go to a church of another faith.
I’ll close this post with an old story. I was at a chancery in diocese X. I was wearing my habit. While on the elevator the chancellor got on. We said hello and he proceeded to tell me that the proper dress for the chancery is a Roman collar, not a habit. Technically speaking, religious need not wear a Roman collar. We can wear a habit. However, canonically speaking, the chancery belongs to the bishop, not the faithful. I’m a religious, not the bishop. So I never went to the chancery again in my habit. I always wore a Roman collar from that day forward. Whenever I wore the collar everyone knew I was on my way to the chancery.
It’s their diocese, not mine. I just live and work here. This is not a sin. Therefore, let it go so you can have some internal silence to pray.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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1holycatholic
Guest
That’s precisely where they’re going to be left during mass. Thieves break into cars during mass right now. They’re going to hit the jackpot if such a prohibition exists (I can’t find anything on the Archdiocese website.) It’s ironic that the purported restriction will end up putting guns in the hands of criminals.
The downtown Domincan parish near me has an armed police officer sitting up with the altar servers at every weekday midday mass I’ve attended. Another downtown parish was robbed during mass:
January 28, 2007 – Columbus, Ohio - Christ the King Church - Wendell Hollingsworth and Celeste Smith barged into the church with a gun, and announced, “This is a robbery.” Smith began to grab purses while the Hollingsworth demanded wallets at gunpoint. The congregation didn’t let them get away, as ushers tackled the pair and held them until police arrived.
Were people CCW at the time? Probably, since it’s permitted here. That parish has a problem with cars getting broken into during mass.
The Catechism is completely silent on guns. Many posters are trying to inject their personal opinions regarding guns into the Catechism.
I occasionally attend mass at parishes in crime infested neighborhoods. I don’t CCW. I live in a suburb where my particular parish is left unlocked more than twelve hours per day. It doesn’t mean there’s no crime, just that it isn’t likely that you are going to get robbed or shot attending mass (or right after mass) as you are in other areas.
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1holycatholic
Guest
Sadly, such parishes exist.
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melensdad
Guest
And in many states what you say is not true.
In fact in many states the most they can do is ask you to leave and if you do then there is no law broken, no violation.
So that said, it pays to know the laws of your state because your description has greatly exaggerated what they have “the right to” do in many states.
What if you feel safe inside the church but don’t feel safe outside the walls of the church. Many such communities exist where the church itself may be safe but the walk to the parking lot or the walk home may be a harrowing experience.
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