La. bishops: No guns in Catholic churches

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I grow weary of the debate. Handguns are SO 1985…the future of defense and asymetrical warfare is IEDs. The bishops didn’t specifically say anything about those:D

And what if I don’t feel like lugging around a handgun? Let’s say I decide to go to Mass one Sunday (purely hypothetical, although I will go for funerals and weddings of good friends). On that given day, maybe I’m feeling a little 1920s Harlem in me and I decide to carry a straight razor in my sock. The bishops didn’t bar those either, from what I read. Think loopholes, people!👍
 
Actually, obedience to any legitimate authority is required in all matters where that authority has the power and the right to demand obedience. The bishops have the power and authority, given to them by God, tradition and Canon Law to demand obedience from their faithful in ordinary things.

For example, purchasing this piece of land and selling that other one has nothing to do with our salvation. But the bishop has the power to do just that with Church property.

Whether or not a wear a habit has nothing to do with my salvation. But I was told by one diocese that I was to wear a Roman collar when I visited the chancery and not the Franciscan habit, which is the habit of my order. I was bound to obey or not visit the chancery. It’s his chancery. Therefore, I dress as the bishop wants.

In this case, these are his parishes. You do what he wants. As long as he is the legitimate Ordinary of the diocese, he has ordinary authority that must be obeyed by all the faithful: clergy, religiuos and laity. Agreement is not required, any more than a parent requires that his children agree with their bedtime or their curfew. Neither of these is necessary for their salvation. But the parent deems them necessary for the good order of his home and the well-being of his children. The same applies to a bishop, a mayor, a cop or any other legitimate authority.

Authority that is exercised legitimately must be obeyed, whether it is civil or ecclesial. What constitutes legitimacy? It may not contradict natural law or ecclesial law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I haven’t advocated disobedience to the ordinary. That’s not the point. The point was that some take everything the bishop says and conflate it into doctrine. Attending mass does pertain to our salvation. Weapons are frequently present at mass and their presence is not forbidden by the code of canon law. The Knights of Columbus bear swords at mass for example. It is within the right of the bishop to ask parishioners not to carry concealed weapons at mass. It is also the right of the laity to inform the bishop of their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church such as parish security. We don’t have the right to disobey legitimate direction from the bishop. Canon law doesn’t state that I have to agree with everything the bishop does even if it’s within his right to do so.

It’s ironic that the bishops are all too eager to ban concealed guns at mass which they have the ability to do even though it has no bearing on our salvation, but many over them cower when confronted with notorious public advocates of abortion and homosexual “marriage” receiving communion at mass which is a matter most definitely pertaining to salvation.
 
Br. Jr ask me if I would go into schism over this gun rule? Yes I would because IMHO these Bishops are getting advice from people like the George Soros’s of this world that want to strip all gun ownership from American citizens.

This really makes me sad for you. To leave a Church you believe to be the true one is to be false to your own mind and conscience, as well as to our LORD. And just over a political point?

I myself left the Church for some years during my time at University; I did so because at the time, I did not believe the Catholic church was the true faith. Having become convinced that it is, I would never leave it over a remote “rights” issue.

The chances are vanishingly slim that a gun would save you in any situation arising in a church; but it can never save your soul.

ICXC NIKA.
 
I haven’t advocated disobedience to the ordinary. That’s not the point. The point was that some take everything the bishop says and conflate it into doctrine. Attending mass does pertain to our salvation. Weapons are frequently present at mass and their presence is not forbidden by the code of canon law. The Knights of Columbus bear swords at mass for example. It is within the right of the bishop to ask parishioners not to carry concealed weapons at mass. It is also the right of the laity to inform the bishop of their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church such as parish security. We don’t have the right to disobey legitimate direction from the bishop. Canon law doesn’t state that I have to agree with everything the bishop does even if it’s within his right to do so.

It’s ironic that the bishops are all too eager to ban concealed guns at mass which they have the ability to do even though it has no bearing on our salvation, but many over them cower when confronted with notorious public advocates of abortion and homosexual “marriage” receiving communion at mass which is a matter most definitely pertaining to salvation.
As a 4th Degree Knight of Columbus let met convey a few things here. Fist - some priests explicitly do no let Knights bring their ceremonial swords into mass since they do not like the implication of it being seen as a weapon. That said, some conditionally permit us too - but only if we do not draw them in church. It turns out we don’t normally draw swords inside the church anyway. Secondly, the swords are ceremonial and have blunt unsharpened edges. I suppose the pointy end could do serious harm if used deliberately but it would be a stretch to really call these functional weapons without also calling the altar boy’s pole with affixed crucifix a pike-like pole-weapon as well.

As an additional point of interest - some military service sword protocol does not permit the wearing of swords in church and they must be left at the door or just inside the entrance. I believe naval protocol permits the wearing of sabres but they ordinarily must remain sheathed.

BF
 
Do I pack heat when I go to Mass, no I don’t. Would I obey my, or the local bishops rule to not carry a weapon to Mass. yes I would. Do I believe that some pro gun concealed weapons carriers should not carry them, yes I do. Do I think the people who are anti gun argue mostly from emotion rather than logic. yes I do.
 
Do I think the people who are anti gun argue mostly from emotion rather than logic. yes I do.
Sure, there’s some of that, but be careful about casting stones. Most Gun Owners of America literature is highly emotional, the NRA is as capable of emotion as the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, and at least on this thread, most emotionalism has been on the part of those who question the bishops’ stance.

Calling the other side emotional is not good argument IMO.
 
As a 4th Degree Knight of Columbus let met convey a few things here. Fist - some priests explicitly do no let Knights bring their ceremonial swords into mass since they do not like the implication of it being seen as a weapon. That said, some conditionally permit us too - but only if we do not draw them in church. It turns out we don’t normally draw swords inside the church anyway. Secondly, the swords are ceremonial and have blunt unsharpened edges. I suppose the pointy end could do serious harm if used deliberately but it would be a stretch to really call these functional weapons without also calling the altar boy’s pole with affixed crucifix a pike-like pole-weapon as well.

As an additional point of interest - some military service sword protocol does not permit the wearing of swords in church and they must be left at the door or just inside the entrance. I believe naval protocol permits the wearing of sabres but they ordinarily must remain sheathed.

BF
A sword is a weapon.

I, too, am a Knight. I’ve never heard of the color corp being suppressed by a priest. I can find no evidence of any such incident on Google. In fact the only priest I’ve ever heard speak out against the Knights of Columbus is Fr. Geoffrey Farrow.
 
No, but I would have a serious problem with anybody being shot in this situation; the issue after all was guns, not “body altercation.” And where everybody is armed, body-altercations have a way of progressing to deadly force.
This is not a situation that calls for anything but detaining the bad guy. There have been many times that when at a Roman Rite Ordinary from Mass that I have observed Our Lord be abused. In these cases the proper thing to do is to tell the priest or other person in charge. A couple of times when someone attempted to hand over to anther a host I have gone over that told the person that is not allowed. But the final judgment upon that type of situation the is GODs.
 
For those that want Stats.
carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html

Ministry Violence Statistics
Thank you for the statistics. The good thing about them is that there were only 149 deaths in 11 and a half years - in the entire country. Those numbers are so low that they argue not for, but against, allowing people to be armed in church. When one considers all the church services conducted in all the churches of whatever denomination across that time span across the country, the numbers are statistically irrelevant.
 
I grow weary of the debate. Handguns are SO 1985…the future of defense and asymetrical warfare is IEDs. The bishops didn’t specifically say anything about those:D

And what if I don’t feel like lugging around a handgun? Let’s say I decide to go to Mass one Sunday (purely hypothetical, although I will go for funerals and weddings of good friends). On that given day, maybe I’m feeling a little 1920s Harlem in me and I decide to carry a straight razor in my sock. The bishops didn’t bar those either, from what I read. Think loopholes, people!👍
I can think of an item that is more dangerous to the people sitting in the pew next to you. Pepper spray comes to mind big time. People with breathing problems and young children can die from exposure to this self defense" toxic mix.
 
I haven’t advocated disobedience to the ordinary. That’s not the point. The point was that some take everything the bishop says and conflate it into doctrine. Attending mass does pertain to our salvation. Weapons are frequently present at mass and their presence is not forbidden by the code of canon law. The Knights of Columbus bear swords at mass for example. It is within the right of the bishop to ask parishioners not to carry concealed weapons at mass. It is also the right of the laity to inform the bishop of their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church such as parish security. We don’t have the right to disobey legitimate direction from the bishop. Canon law doesn’t state that I have to agree with everything the bishop does even if it’s within his right to do so.

It’s ironic that the bishops are all too eager to ban concealed guns at mass which they have the ability to do even though it has no bearing on our salvation, but many over them cower when confronted with notorious public advocates of abortion and homosexual “marriage” receiving communion at mass which is a matter most definitely pertaining to salvation.
The point is very simple. I believe that many would do well to read what St. Francis of Assisi wrote on this point in 1221. We obey not because authority is right, for we know that authority can be wrong. Be we still obey, even when authority is wrong. We obey, because such obedience is pleasing to God and man.

Francis made it very clear that obedience is not about authority being right or wrong or about canon law. That’s an American way of thinking, not a traditional Catholic way of thinking. We obey because it’s the right thing for us to do. Forget about the right thing for the bishops to do or not do.

As St. Benedict said, we’re not goint be put on the judgment seat for the bishop. We’re going to be put on the judgment seat for ourselves.

When a bishop exercises his ordinary rights, which by the way are in canon law, the faithful have the obligation to obey.

Canon law was written very carefully to cover a multitude of situations. By saying that religious superiors, abbots, bishops and popes have Ordinary rights, they covered everything that could possibly come up. The lawyers who drew up the canons could not anticipate every issue. So they created a law that covered every unanticipatated posibility. The rule is that if it falls under the Ordinary jurisdiciton of the person in authority, he must be obeyed. That leaves out very little.

What we, as Catholics, should be doing in this thread is setting an example for each other on obedience and fidelity to our faith tradition. Obedience to bishops has always been part of our faith tradition. In fact, that’s one of the criteria for canonization. That’s how serious the Church takes obedience to the bishop, abbot or the religious superior. The only time that you can decline to obey and still get past the scrutiny is if you are asked to do something that the Church has identified as sin, not something that you believe to be a sin. That does not hold water with the Church. Your conscience can be ill formed. There are some exceptions to this rule, but that’s material for another thread.

For this thread the matter is setting a good example for others, especiallly non Catholics, of how we love and respect our bishops. Here is a serious problem. We come across as a Church of people who despise and distrust the peopel who guide them. If we despise and distrust their judgment every time they turn a corner, why should we trust their teachings on more difficult things to believe, such as the Eucharist, the absolution of sins, the virgin birth, the hypostatic union and so forth?

If I were a non Catholic I would ask why you people believe your bishops when they teach you things that you cannot prove, but you challenge them everytime they teach you things that are simple? We’re projecting an inconsistancy here and we’re doing it in public.

If we truly feel strongly about this and we also feel strongly about how our Chuch looks to others, we take our dirty laundry and we wash it at home, not on the internet. Write to the bishop and ask the questions. If you dont’ like the answer, write to his boss. You’ll get an answer. You may not like it. But you will get one. However, if you write you need to be willing to accept the answer and let the argument drop. You can’t drag something on forever, especially something like this. It’s not worth it for our souls.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thank you for the statistics. The good thing about them is that there were only 149 deaths (total number of deaths in the incidents was 193) in 11 and a half years - in the entire country. Those numbers are so low that they argue not for, but against, allowing people to be armed in church. When one considers all the church services conducted in all the churches of whatever denomination across that time span across the country, the numbers are statistically irrelevant.
Sorry but I disagree. Notice that the trend is upwards. 2010 is less then half over and not far behind 2009. Total is much higher if you count the deaths after the origional attack:
TOTAL DEADLY FORCE DEATHS and INCIDENTS SINCE 1/01/1999
267
329


Also as in anything if it happens to you it is 100%.
The FBI has stated that the threats of violence has gone up. As the threats go so does the actual violence. This is why it is so important to listen to the “chatter” and be better prepared.
 
A sword is a weapon.

I, too, am a Knight. I’ve never heard of the color corp being suppressed by a priest. I can find no evidence of any such incident on Google. In fact the only priest I’ve ever heard speak out against the Knights of Columbus is Fr. Geoffrey Farrow.
I see. I suppose you don’t let your kids play with toy weapons if they happen to be pastic and the box calls them “swords” either? : :rolleyes:

A sharp wit is a weapon too but let’s not fall over on our swords over semantics brother knight. :chuckle:

It’s not an “incident” per say. Some priests just do not want color guards in their church period. It’s there prerogative completely and no one begrudges them in the least. And some priests also do not want a KofC Council in their parish or are only give at best luke-warm support to the idea and so these new would-be councils never get formed. It’s a privilege to serve not a right. Count yourself fortunate if you never encounter this but there is at least 1 parish in my area where we are requested not to wear our regalia. It’s no big deal.

BF
 
Sorry but I disagree. Notice that the trend is upwards. 2010 is less then half over and not far behind 2009. Total is much higher if you count the deaths after the origional attack:
TOTAL DEADLY FORCE DEATHS and INCIDENTS SINCE 1/01/1999
267
329


Also as in anything if it happens to you it is 100%.
The FBI has stated that the threats of violence has gone up. As the threats go so does the actual violence. This is why it is so important to listen to the “chatter” and be better prepared.
Given the number of Christian services held in the United States over that peiod of time (in the millions), those numbers are still statistically insignificant.
 
When a bishop exercises his ordinary rights, which by the way are in canon law, the faithful have the obligation to obey.
I haven’t advocated disobedience as you imply. In fact I specifically stated that we don’t have the right to disobey legitimate direction from the ordinary.
 
So there have been no statistical increases in accidental shooting-deaths of
*
{chop}*
Your seriously uncharitable tone and inaccurate and improperly interpreted statistics really detract from you points. Please post more charitably and cease mocking other posters.

For example, you mentioned that there has been great variability in crime rates in Alaska compared to the rest of country as a whole. Well of course. It is a state with fewer than 900,000 people and you are comparing that the the entire USA with various others factors that tend to smooth out rate curves because the vastly different sample sizes. Please.

As for your statistic on bear maulings, you make four critical mistakes. First, why 40 year old statistics? Were later statistics not as helpful for your point? Next, while you claim to say “injury or death”, the numbers you quoted were actually just deaths. In Anchorage alone, there were three bear mailings last year, at least one was fatal. In two cases it was a pedestrian and bicyclist on a bike path (different bears.) The third problem is that carefully crafted “statistics” referred only to sparsely and occasionally populated “national parks”, not cities, state parks, national forests, state forests, BLM lands or private lands, where the vast majority of attacks occur. For example, the bear maulings that took place in Anchorage in the time of your statistics would not be included. My brother has had more than 15 grizzly bear encounters in the last 10 years. The third mistake is limiting the animal thread to grizzlies are not the only problem. Black bears, moose, wolves, lynx, and other large cats as well as large game pose threats to people. Moose are particularly problematic. Only a fool goes fishing in Alaska without a large caliber handgun.

By the way, black bears are a problem in Florida (and New Jersey and Georgia, and the Carolinas…)

But the point is not about the threats of wildlife creating a need for self protection. Rather the point of my early post, which you either could not figure out or chose to ignore, was that there is no huge increase in gun accidents as you and another protester claimed. While you are probably correct in your assertion that the rate of gun competence per capita is probably higher in Alaska, that does not mean that individual Alaskans who are gun competent are more gun competent that residents of the lower 48 who are gun competent. With few exceptions, those who actually obtain a CHL have demonstrated that they can competently handle guns.

It seems to me that people who are opposed to firearms, especially in the irrational and frankly mean manner of some of the posts on this thread, are actually arguing from a position of ignorance. They have not used a gun, not familiar with proper procedures and cannot separate the firearm from the person. In fact, you post also demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of the threats of various wildlife. In fact, you showed no understanding at all of the threats in not just rural areas, but even suburban areas. Not to mention what a “frontier” area really is.

Such a hatred of guns and extending that to a hatred of those who carry them, with no distinction between legal and illegal purpose, can be likened to a hatred of homosexuals. We are, as Catholic called to love all people including homosexuals. Yet we must distinguish the person from the sin. When it comes to gun issues, it is absolutely critical to distinguish between legal use and illegal use.

One of the most critical first steps in any dictatorship is to disarm the public. With the direction the current US administration is taking, the last thing that should be encouraged is any limitation on the reasonable legal use of firearms, including concealed carry laws.

Please be charitable or even more people will add you to their ignore list.
 
I see. I suppose you don’t let your kids play with toy weapons if they happen to be pastic and the box calls them “swords” either? : :rolleyes:

A sharp wit is a weapon too but let’s not fall over on our swords over semantics brother knight. :chuckle:
We aren’t speaking of giant foam pool toys or Fisher Price toys. I would let a child play with a toy but not with a ceremonial sword which is a weapon. You’re trying to avoid the obvious with semantic games.
It’s not an “incident” per say. Some priests just do not want color guards in their church period. It’s there prerogative completely and no one begrudges them in the least. And some priests also do not want a KofC Council in their parish or are only give at best luke-warm support to the idea and so these new would-be councils never get formed. It’s a privilege to serve not a right. Count yourself fortunate if you never encounter this but there is at least 1 parish in my area where we are requested not to wear our regalia. It’s no big deal.

BF
That seems odd.
 
Given the number of Christian services held in the United States over that peiod of time (in the millions), those numbers are still statistically insignificant.
Probably not that insignificant to the families of the victims. No one is claiming this is an everyday experience. It only has to happen once.
 
Thank you for the statistics. The good thing about them is that there were only 149 deaths in 11 and a half years - in the entire country. Those numbers are so low that they argue not for, but against, allowing people to be armed in church. When one considers all the church services conducted in all the churches of whatever denomination across that time span across the country, the numbers are statistically irrelevant.
Those with criminal intent will never disarm themselves, no matter what the “rules” or laws say. Banning guns only bans them from law-abiding, never the criminals. Nor does it make them harder to get. Just look at the gangs in Chicago.
 
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