LA prelate ‘deeply concerned’ about Trump on immigration

[vz71]

Is it fair to deport people for breaking a law we ourselves were not taking seriously?

I drive to work every day along a highway.
There is a police officer radar tracking traffic nearly every day.
I speed by every day and am never pulled over.
But one day I am.

I broke the law. I knew it and continued in violation.
Eventually I was caught and given a ticket.

It does not matter if I could get away with it before or not, the law is the law and I continued in violation of it.

These people likewise knew the law.
These people likewise continued in full knowledge that they were in violation.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You brought up the phrase “Christian morals” so I attempted to bring you out on the use of Christian morals and immigration laws that by there nature keep some people from coming here.

I don’t know what you mean by “bring me out”. I am already quite open about my support for the Archbishop’s message. What’s left to bring out? But since you didn’t answer my direct question, I will just assume you were being sarcastic, because that would be really weird if you actually meant that there should be no borders.

The Archbishop has his viewpoint and I respectfully disagree with it. I did however say that we could look at these people who are here at the proper time after we have done the first steps I pointed out.

This means nothing unless the “first steps” are something that are actually achievable and there are clear objective criteria for knowing when we are done with those first steps. As for me, I find no support in the catechism or another other document of the Church for opposing what Archbishop Gomez said.

 

[on_the_hill]

This does not address my point, which was that mercy towards those who are here should not be contingent upon vague unachievable goals in securing the border.

They aren’t. The Archbishop is calling upon us to be welcoming.

Wow! I’ve heard exactly the same argument from pro-abortion supporters. But the fact is law in America should be formed from the morals of the people, and everyone gets to weigh in on what those morals are. If Christians want to see their vision of morality expressed in law, they have every right - in fact a duty - to attempt to do so. The Archbishop is just reminding us what that morality is.

Right. The law is the law. If someone wants to get an abortion, I have no right to interfere with her.

Americans are an odd lot, aren’t we?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Who has helped these nations, especially Mexico more than us? Hundreds of American companies have opened factories south of the border…

American companies did that for their own selfish reasons. That does not absolve us from our Christian duty to welcome the stranger - to be compassionate as Jesus is compassionate with us, as unworthy as we may be.

We have done our part…

Luke 18:11-12:
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
The Pharisee thought he did his part too.

but we cannot control everything that goes on down there especially the corruption that exists among elected officials and the drugs cartels that cause so much mayhem.

That is no excuse. The Good Samaritan could not control everything that goes down on the road to Jericho. But that did not stop him from helping one of the victims.

In the end we have to have control over our own borders and who comes across them or our nation no longer exists and is able to continue provide for us the best lifestyle possible, i.e. the people who were actually who born here.

1. Archbishop Gomez is not calling for open borders. That is a straw man argument.
2. What makes the people who are actually born here morally superior to those who are not born here? What makes them and only them morally entitled to live here in a land that God gave us? It is not anything the people here earned through their own merit. Remember, God will call us to account for our stewardship of His gifts. Stewardship - not ownership.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I
These people likewise knew the law.
These people likewise continued in full knowledge that they were in violation.

If you were in their desperate situation, would you risk breaking the law or would you risk staying in your unsafe situation? I would be very careful about ascribing moral failings to people in desperate straits.

 

[Sarcelle]

American companies did that for their own selfish reasons. That does not absolve us from our Christian duty to welcome the stranger - to be compassionate as Jesus is compassionate with us, as unworthy as we may be.

Luke 18:11-12:
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
The Pharisee thought he did his part too.

That is no excuse. The Good Samaritan could not control everything that goes down on the road to Jericho. But that did not stop him from helping one of the victims.

1. Archbishop Gomez is not calling for open borders. That is a straw man argument.
2. What makes the people who are actually born here morally superior to those who are not born here? What makes them and only them morally entitled to live here in a land that God gave us? It is not anything the people here earned through their own merit. Remember, God will call us to account for our stewardship of His gifts. Stewardship - not ownership.

What?

Who here is saying that people who were born in the US are morally superior?

Lots of US citizens were born elsewhere but were able to become US citizens by following the law.

I bet if you went to Switzerland you would be expected to follow their immigration law in order to get Swiss citizenship. Are the Swiss in the wrong for insisting their laws be followed?
Is it sinful for me to say that the law be observed?

If you think immigration laws in this country are unjust, I suggest reforming it rather than encouraging others to break it.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

If you think immigration laws in this country are unjust, I suggest reforming it rather than encouraging others to break it.

That’s what Archbishop Gomez is encouraging. Not the breaking of the laws, but the reforming of the laws so that they won’t be breaking them.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, and if the law were changed, it would be otherwise. We are not arguing about what the law** is**. We are arguing about what the law should be. Therefore we should look at your last statement in the light of Christian morals rather than in the light of current law. And it that light your statement is problematic.

Yes, and that’s the point Limbaugh and others miss.

Laws can change and programs can be created to keep those who have something to give. What people tend to forget immigrants are also consumers and add to the economy, not always take away American jobs.

 

[ProVobis]

Again, how many immigrants can we take in? 1 million? 10 million? Hundreds of millions?

Enough to keep a healthy economy grow. Without immigration, the American population would fall and along with it demand for products. Jobs don’t just happen; someone has to buy the products created.

 

[vz71]

If you were in their desperate situation, would you risk breaking the law or would you risk staying in your unsafe situation? I would be very careful about ascribing moral failings to people in desperate straits.

If I felt I had no option I would realize the consequences of the act and be prepared to take them.

The law is the law.

 

[Theo520]

That’s what Archbishop Gomez is encouraging. Not the breaking of the laws, but the reforming of the laws so that they won’t be breaking them.

The only law that won’t be broken would be one that supported free movement and open borders.

Not an acceptable path.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

If I felt I had no option I would realize the consequences of the act and be prepared to take them.

The law is the law.

That’s right. And these undocumented people realized that too and have prepared themselves to take the consequences should they get caught. That does not mean they would be happy about it. And neither would you be in their place. So it is hard to see how you can criticize them morally for doing something you would do too.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The only law that won’t be broken would be one that supported free movement and open borders.

Not an acceptable path.

Straw man argument - again. Archbishop Gomez is not proposing open boarders and unrestricted movement.

 

[St_Francis]

I drive to work every day along a highway.
There is a police officer radar tracking traffic nearly every day.
I speed by every day and am never pulled over.
But one day I am.

I broke the law. I knew it and continued in violation.
Eventually I was caught and given a ticket.

It does not matter if I could get away with it before or not, the law is the law and I continued in violation of it.

These people likewise knew the law.
These people likewise continued in full knowledge that they were in violation.

I used to live near the border of two states. In one, the police enforced speed limits very strictly. They gave tickets for going one or two miles over the speed limit. They used non-police cars so they could catch speeders.

In the other state, the police didn’t ticket people unless they were going 10 miles over the speed limit. They only ticketed from marked state patrol cars.

The general speed on the highway that crossed that border was marked. You could tell which state you were in by how fast the general traffic was going.

Sanctuary cities, arguments about enforcement, amnesties, all these give people outside the country the idea that we are not serious about enforcement. if we are not serious about our laws, why should they be?

 

[vz71]

That’s right. And these undocumented people realized that too and have prepared themselves to take the consequences should they get caught. That does not mean they would be happy about it. And neither would you be in their place. So it is hard to see how you can criticize them morally for doing something you would do too.

I am not criticizing anyone about it.
I am pointing out the violation of the law.

Break the law, suffer the consequences.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

If you were in their desperate situation, would you risk breaking the law or would you risk staying in your unsafe situation? I would be very careful about ascribing moral failings to people in desperate straits.

I asked my mother that same question. No satisfactory answer.

It’s like the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust. We all like to think that we would have lent a helping hand, but our attitude toward similarly afflicted peoples today disproves that notion.

 

[jeannetherese]

It’s like the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust. We all like to think that we would have lent a helping hand, but our attitude toward similarly afflicted peoples today disproves that notion.

There is some difference between being sent to the likelihood of a reduced standard of living and being sent to a gas chamber.
There are also differing perspectives on what might be the best way to lend a helping hand. (changing laws, promoting economic development in sending countries, cracking down on those who hire undocumented workers and exploit their situation, creating various alternative pathways to citizenship being a few examples).

 

[Theo520]

Straw man argument - again. Archbishop Gomez is not proposing open boarders and unrestricted movement.

I was responding accurately to what you said, what you implied. I have no idea what the Archbishop thinks since he isn’t posting here to concur with your comments.

 

[AClaire11]

I asked my mother that same question. No satisfactory answer.

It’s like the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust. We all like to think that we would have lent a helping hand, but our attitude toward similarly afflicted peoples today disproves that notion.

As someone with relatives who died in the Holocaust, this is a gross, offensive comparison. No one is rounding up these people and systematically trying to erase them from the earth. “Similarly afflicted?” Ridiculous.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I am not criticizing anyone about it.
I am pointing out the violation of the law.

Break the law, suffer the consequences.

If you are not critical of the illegal immigrants, then you should have no trouble changing the law so that they are not in violation of the law.