Lack of Desire

[apricot_yogurt]

To the OP. I have been praying for your wife to be freed from fear. Fear can be utterly disabling.
As Catholics we are called to be open to life, to not do this is not to trust in God. Has He let you down before?
As a woman, to permanantly avoid children, without recourse to birth control can be a burden. A couple of you guys were joking about a woman being fickle by being super interested during her fertile phase, and then wham, totally disinterested when she is not. This is the way that God designed women-I wonder what her body is trying to say to her?
At this point, some couples might say-this is too difficult-lets just do what “everyone else” does, and use contraception, and at this point another couple will abandon NFP, trust in God, and enjoy each other fully and completely. The latter, relies on the defeat of fear through trust in God, and the strength of the holy spirit. The former gives in to fear, to Satan, who tells you that God does not have a clue, does not love you and doesn’t know the first thing about sex.

 

[Mirdath]

And you are wrong, cynic.

Do you think there is any lack of men who want an idealized mommy-figure in their lives instead of a life-partner, as in someone to cook and clean for them, and tell them everything they do is okay - no, is great whether right or wrong, and generally selflessly provide instant gratification? Because that’s right on par with the sort of generalization you’ve drawn regarding women.

Not to mention the ‘use them and lose them’ male stereotype (also horribly selfish and immature) - hm, think that shoe doesn’t fit lots of men out there? That’s not exactly unheard-of behavior either, sadly.

But would it be right or just or (more to the point) correct to tar all, or most, men with the same brush? No, it certainly would not. Not even close.

Some people do objectify their spouses, treating them as substitute parents, sextoys, ATM machines and so forth. Some people are idiots. But we can do better, we can BE better than that, all of us.

On this forum alone, one hears all kinds of ridiculous generalizations regarding all kinds of groups of people - men, women, Muslims, Catholics, atheists, people of every creed and nationality and skin color (that last often tacit, but it’s there), every shade of sexual preference (not just talking about the assumptions regarding gay/lesbian/bi/trans people - there are plenty of terrible, limiting assumptions made about heterosexuals here too), and so on and on, world without end. When the chant of “Group X is like ____ and Group Y is like ____” goes up, it’s time to take a good hard look at what’s being said.

Your misogynous bigotry seems to be a form of presuming that most women are childish, emotionally and sexually stunted golddiggers - and there probably are some women out there who match that description more or less. In a world of over six billion people, it’s easy enough to find examples backing up any assumption one cares to make. And the assertion that women ‘tend’ to not love their husbands as individuals is one of the most pernicious, hateful attitudes I have heard yet. I find myself at once laughing and horrified.

While I do not know what your experiences may be, or whether you have picked up your opinions from other peoples’ anecdotes or possibly the media, please try to remember that ALL people are individuals, and there aren’t any ‘safe’ assumptions you can make about individuals you haven’t even met yet. You don’t have to take that advice, but you’ll have a lot more friends, and perhaps a chance at true love if you do.

 

[litllulu]

For us NFP kills spontaniaty (sp). I could not take the pill as it messed with my pyschie and made me gain weight…20 lbs. in a year. So that wasn’t working. We had to move on to something else…and that also killed spontaniaty as well. I was a nervous wreck because I had to tell my husband “no”, even if I was really thinking “yes”. After our second child, we were trying to buy a house and that was stressful in itself. We moved into my parents house right after the second one was born, and stayed a month until the house we bought was ready to move in. If you have never moved with a 21 month old and a month old infant…my advice, don’t try it. After we were settled in I realized…oh great…my desire (after the baby) has returned red hot, and we are back to playing baby roulette. I was a basket case. My husband never knew. I understand why some women don’t share this with their husbands…especially if they are in total lock step with church teaching. Please know that I believe your wife loves you very much and wants to be with you. NFP has to be followed to the letter or it doesn’t work. Charting and temp taking are frustrating at best…and there is always a margin of error, and in 9 months you will know what it is. This is very stressful. I know people on here may think I am hard hard-hearted. But in my family’s case…it boiled down to pure economics. Can we afford another child? We now have 2 in college, and that is yet another expense…if we had 3 or more…more than likely none of them would be able to go unless they went into the military.

IMHO, your sex life is “your” business. The nay sayers on here, (mostly men) haven’t a clue what it is like to carry a child and all the biological changes that go with it. They don’t understand that to play you must pay…and it is the women who has the bulk of the work. Just look around your parish on Sunday, how many mega-children families do you see? A scant few with more than 3 kids. I do think you need to talk to your wife and point blank ask her if that is why she is turned off. It is not a sin to say, “yes”, I’m scared to death of having another child that we can’t afford, or I my preganancies were complicated and I am having a rough time thinking about going through it again. You will find, it is NOT “you”. She loves you and she loves the church…she is in a tug of war. Your prayfulness, understanding, and as Mirdath has made some great suggestions. I wish you well.

Julianna, your analysis rings true to many people I know. One of my sisters had preeclampsia with EVERY pregnancy. That is a grave situation. She does the strictest NFP, her husband does not like those fertile times AT ALL. She says, hon, this is a fertile time, lets wait a week. He says, so what lets have another. Some Men just don’t get it. Now she resorts to the headache excuse.

 

[searching06]

For us NFP kills spontaniaty (sp). I could not take the pill as it messed with my pyschie and made me gain weight…20 lbs. in a year. So that wasn’t working. We had to move on to something else…and that also killed spontaniaty as well. I was a nervous wreck because I had to tell my husband “no”, even if I was really thinking “yes”. After our second child, we were trying to buy a house and that was stressful in itself. We moved into my parents house right after the second one was born, and stayed a month until the house we bought was ready to move in. If you have never moved with a 21 month old and a month old infant…my advice, don’t try it. After we were settled in I realized…oh great…my desire (after the baby) has returned red hot, and we are back to playing baby roulette. I was a basket case. My husband never knew. I understand why some women don’t share this with their husbands…especially if they are in total lock step with church teaching. Please know that I believe your wife loves you very much and wants to be with you. NFP has to be followed to the letter or it doesn’t work. Charting and temp taking are frustrating at best…and there is always a margin of error, and in 9 months you will know what it is. This is very stressful. I know people on here may think I am hard hard-hearted. But in my family’s case…it boiled down to pure economics. Can we afford another child? We now have 2 in college, and that is yet another expense…if we had 3 or more…more than likely none of them would be able to go unless they went into the military.

IMHO, your sex life is “your” business. The nay sayers on here, (mostly men) haven’t a clue what it is like to carry a child and all the biological changes that go with it. They don’t understand that to play you must pay…and it is the women who has the bulk of the work. Just look around your parish on Sunday, how many mega-children families do you see? A scant few with more than 3 kids. I do think you need to talk to your wife and point blank ask her if that is why she is turned off. It is not a sin to say, “yes”, I’m scared to death of having another child that we can’t afford, or I my preganancies were complicated and I am having a rough time thinking about going through it again. You will find, it is NOT “you”. She loves you and she loves the church…she is in a tug of war. Your prayfulness, understanding, and as Mirdath has made some great suggestions. I wish you well.

NFP most definitely kills spontaneity. And that sometimes tends to lead to the worry of “are we having sex for sex?” and the feeling of being “utilitarian”. But these last few years, it is actually me feeling utilitarian (which I believe someone responded to) and basically feeling, “Oh, it’s phase 3? Ok, whatever, we might as well.” There is not much in the way of closeness. Oh, and as for “pure economics”, we are right there with you and it is why we follow NFP so closely, which lends to all of these posts! But I will also say we do have four kids, the oldest one in college and the second one we hope will go one day. The oldest works to pay us back for the loans we took out and has sudent loans she will have to pay back when she graduates. Those things will work out. Do not for a moment think that as a parent you have to pay for college. It would be nice, but I grew up helping my parents pay for it. And being old Army and a former military recruiter, in spite of what is going on in the world, I had long-time friends who never got close to war in their entire careers. You have to look at it this way for a kids who does not know what to do or who does not have the money to go to college: the military will feed you, house, pay you, train you, educate you, give you a ton of money for college plus a computer in some cases, give specialized and/or technical skills, plus you will travel and see the world - not a bad gig.

 

[searching06]

To the OP. I have been praying for your wife to be freed from fear. Fear can be utterly disabling.
As Catholics we are called to be open to life, to not do this is not to trust in God. Has He let you down before?
As a woman, to permanantly avoid children, without recourse to birth control can be a burden. A couple of you guys were joking about a woman being fickle by being super interested during her fertile phase, and then wham, totally disinterested when she is not. This is the way that God designed women-I wonder what her body is trying to say to her?
At this point, some couples might say-this is too difficult-lets just do what “everyone else” does, and use contraception, and at this point another couple will abandon NFP, trust in God, and enjoy each other fully and completely. The latter, relies on the defeat of fear through trust in God, and the strength of the holy spirit. The former gives in to fear, to Satan, who tells you that God does not have a clue, does not love you and doesn’t know the first thing about sex.

Wow. I’m quite not sure where “my wife’s fears” came from, but I think I can follow.

It is not fear of having sex or even having another child as much as it is doing anything contrary to church teachings, which in our case means not doing anything to have me “finish” outside of intercourse. I love feeling my wife make love to me as much as I love doing so to her, probably like any other guy. (And there may a whole other discussion - making love “to” vs “with”, which goes to Emily’s point it is OK to enjoy it). But I tend to feel her fear of that (though not an ungrounded concern) and focusing so much on finishing together (OK, we’re adults - mutual orgasm) interfere with her giving me physical attention, which I need just as much to feel intimate and close to her.

We have debated following Jean_Marie’s advice - dump the NFP and whatever happens, happens. But as easliy as my wife gets pregnant, we’d have a sports team by now! But that also goes to the question of should we completely trust God as to whether we have more kids (naive, not naive?) or is God expecting us to trust Him and be responsible at the same time?

Since the first portion of my post here alluded to it, I am going to risk a sensitive question, though I think I know the answer (please understand I am not trying to discuss techniques or practices per se, but I think I’m asking a question others have thought about): where do you all stand on or how do you consider/believe/approach the situation, if the man is lucky enough to “finish” more than once or his wife helps him so, on whether that is completed in his wife or not? Afterplay as Mirdath mentioned (another chance in 20 minutes or so??? what’s the secret?!) is just as important and quite honestly, for me feels better/more intense both physcially and emotionally, especially as things sometimes go too quickly. In this I feel my wife is giving me herself in giving me attention. The debate, I guess, is by finishing the first time inside my wife, we are still open to life even if the second round may occur outside of her to give each other pleasure in a different way. Is this “cheating”, sinful, etc?

Thank you in advance for indulging me in sort of “pointing out the elephants”…

 

[kage_ar]

Really Really Really suggest you take this to a more private forum There are good catholic groups where you can discuss sesitive topics with other practicing Catholics - one example is www.catholic-convert.com

 

[searching06]

Really Really Really suggest you take this to a more private forum There are good catholic groups where you can discuss sesitive topics with other practicing Catholics - one example is www.catholic-convert.com

My sincere apologies, and this was a concern. Feel free to kill this if possible. But it does go to part of the issues we have been dealing with on using NFP and church teachings. It is what I meant by I tend to point out the elephants in the room. I apologize to anyone I offended and will not be so open with some of these questions in the future. Scouts honor.

 

[Mirdath]

(another chance in 20 minutes or so??? what’s the secret?!)

Since you don’t have sex very often, what I’m getting at is ‘there’s more where that came from’ Especially if you’re ejaculating prematurely (which is where that ‘20 minutes’ comment came from) – once the refractory period passes, you can have sex again without worrying about it being over for you too soon.

20 minutes may be a little on the short side of the estimate if you’re past 25, but if you’re setting an afternoon or evening aside to romance your wife, there’ll still be plenty of time

(fake edit – I don’t think this is ‘too open’, really; it’s probably a useful topic to quite a lot of people. I think kage_ar was more concerned about your privacy than anything else)

 

[Mirdath]

Pardon the double-post yet again, but at the risk of letting a few more elephants come marching in…

When I mentioned foreplay and afterplay, I was actually more referencing your wife’s enjoyment of the embrace. I understand there are Catholic restrictions on just how men are permitted to do their thing, but I haven’t heard of any such restriction on women, so long as it’s all part of the ‘proper’ marital act one way or another. If the woman is, ahem, done either before or after copulation, as I said before, it should make no difference to the possibility of conception, and if anything slightly improve the chances.

Of course, you and she will probably want to check around on the specifics and see if that’s all orthodox and okay, which is why I mentioned talking to a few priests and reading up - but I have looked and so far haven’t seen anything against it. If so, perhaps that might help you both relax, and her feel less afraid too!

Not in any way to downplay your love of the warmth and intimacy of your time together - it’s wonderful! But you did mention a little bit of timing trouble, so…I’m just sayin’.

 

[searching06]

Pardon the double-post yet again, but at the risk of letting a few more elephants come marching in…

When I mentioned foreplay and afterplay, I was actually more referencing your wife’s enjoyment of the embrace. I understand there are Catholic restrictions on just how men are permitted to do their thing, but I haven’t heard of any such restriction on women, so long as it’s all part of the ‘proper’ marital act one way or another. If the woman is, ahem, done either before or after copulation, as I said before, it should make no difference to the possibility of conception, and if anything slightly improve the chances.

Of course, you and she will probably want to check around on the specifics and see if that’s all orthodox and okay, which is why I mentioned talking to a few priests and reading up - but I have looked and so far haven’t seen anything against it. If so, perhaps that might help you both relax, and her feel less afraid too!

Not in any way to downplay your love of the warmth and intimacy of your time together - it’s wonderful! But you did mention a little bit of timing trouble, so…I’m just sayin’.

Sorry, I sometimes take things literally, too. And yes, there is the enjoyment of the embrace; I don’t want to downplay that. There is nothing I have found on restrictions for the woman, which may help in the relaxation and performance departments. I do catch your drift and apprciate it very much, actually… I’ll need to see if my wife is open to more of that… Thank you very much for the words of wisdom.

 

[searching06]

Looks like I shocked/scared off/offended all of the other Catholics here - I apologize.

 

[Julianna]

no you haven’t shocked or offended. I have learned on this board, to keep the “details” in your bedroom vs. on this board…or you’ll be condemned for sure.

Just some advice.

 

[cynic]

Do you think there is any lack of men who want an idealized mommy-figure in their lives instead of a life-partner, as in someone to cook and clean for them, and tell them everything they do is okay - no, is great whether right or wrong, and generally selflessly provide instant gratification? Because that’s right on par with the sort of generalization you’ve drawn regarding women.

Not to mention the ‘use them and lose them’ male stereotype (also horribly selfish and immature) - hm, think that shoe doesn’t fit lots of men out there? That’s not exactly unheard-of behavior either, sadly.

.

yes but that is generally regarded AS bad behaviour.

On the other hand women marrying a men expecting them to be some surrogate father role-player is considered entirely normal. No one questions it.

To be attracted to a successful, confident, ‘dynamic’ man, ready at all times to meet her needs, but not needy himself, nor weak or emotional at the wrong times… this is the ideal we are lead to believe women want. Whether this is true more often or not is, of course, impossible to say, but it’s something us men really fear to be true, because it’s and ideal no man could live up to, nor want to. Hence the high divorce rate (most of which are initiated by dissatisfied women) . We just don’t place womens desires under the same scrutiny as mens…

 

[Mirdath]

yes but that is generally regarded AS bad behaviour.

On the other hand women marrying a men expecting them to be some surrogate daddy role-player is considered entirely normal. No one questions it.

How would you know what is or isn’t ‘normal’ in relationships? I can tell you from experience that sort of thing manifestly isn’t.

To be attracted to a successful, confident, ‘dynamic’ man, ready at all times to meet her needs, but not needy himself, nor weak or emotional at the wrong times… this is the ideal we are lead to believe women want. Whether this is true more often or not is, of course, impossible to say, but it’s something us men really fear to be true, because it’s and ideal no man could live up to, nor want to. Hence the high divorce rate (most of which are initiated by dissatisfied women, not men) . We just don’t place womens desires under the same scrutiny as mens…

That’s a long line of utter bull. If you’re led that easily, why haven’t you yet been strung into a hapless marriage to a golddigger you can’t care enough to shake free from – or do you think you have?

And don’t start talking about ideals for men. You, some other men on this board, and many others have plenty of ideals for women that can’t be lived up to either. Not placing womens’ desires under the same scrutiny? How about you actually acknowledge them first?

Can you stop talking and thinking in broad generalizations just for a second here? I think it’ll really help you out.

 

[PennitentMan]

I thought this was very funny, given the thread

I hope I’m not in trouble now

 

[Mirdath]

I thought this was very funny, given the thread

I hope I’m not in trouble now

Believe it or don’t, I do have a sense of humor

 

[PennitentMan]

Believe it or don’t, I do have a sense of humor

Thanks