Lack of security in salvation

[ryanoneil]

I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!

I thinik the intent of my thread might have been misunderstood. What I’m talking about is the psychological impact of not ever knowing if you are going to heavinn or not, and walking on eggshells trying not to mess up so you aren’t damned. It turns life into a **** shoot. If you die 5 minutes after you go to confession you win. If you die 5 minutes after you masterbate you loose.

Jesus says that those who endure to the end will be saved (Mt 24:13). Many traditions don’t even know is salvation is theirs in the first place, because when someone falls away they say “he wasn’t ever really saved”. They never really know if they are saved until the end. That is a worse psychological impact. Catholics know we are saved now. So long as we persevere in faith we will remain saved. Knowing salvation is ours to lose is more security than not knowing you are saved in the first place.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Jesus says that those who endure to the end will be saved (Mt 24:13). Many traditions don’t even know is salvation is theirs in the first place, because when someone falls away they say “he wasn’t ever really saved”. They never really know if they are saved until the end. That is a worse psychological impact. Catholics know we are saved now. So long as we persevere in faith we will remain saved. Knowing salvation is ours to lose is more security than not knowing you are saved in the first place.

Would it be fair to say that your position is teaching the sovereignity of man in salvation, why or why not?

The question is very much related to the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=396054

 

[Thing]

You believe in the sovereignity of man which is not truth. Man make think he is sovereign.

If you don’t want to be ‘saved’, are you going to be ‘saved’?

 

[2nd_Adam]

If you don’t want to be ‘saved’, are you going to be ‘saved’?

I agree, if you have no desire to come to Christ for live… you will not be saved.

 

[Thing]

I agree, if you have no desire to come to Christ for live… you will not be saved.

And His disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. They were free to, and we are free to leave Him.

 

[crazzeto]

I think it would be wise to continue with the Apostle’s thought. Paul is addressing two groups of people consisting of Jews and Gentiles. The believing Jew is now a Christian where there is no Jew and Gentile distinction. If the unbelieving Jew is ingrafted back again, it will be through Jesus Christ. What will the unbelieving Jew becomes once they are ingrafed back in again, but simply Christians where there is no Jew or Gentile distinction. These are difficult passages… with the only response is to fall to our knees in worship of our Triune God.

So in short, Romans 11 destroys the idea that you have absolute assurance in salvation. For:

See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Thou, being the converted Christians to whom Paul is writing.

 

[2nd_Adam]

So in short, Romans 11 destroys the idea that you have absolute assurance in salvation. For:

Thou, being the converted Christians to whom Paul is writing.

Pretty tough stuff. However, Paul is addressing groups here and not individuals in what you posted. He is addressing the Gentiles. However, in the begining of Romans 11, He is speaking about spiritual Jews, or the elect Jews which is made up of the remnant within the nation of Israel.

Romans 11 is also a proof text for the concept of a visible church and invisible church. Think about that for awhile too.

 

[crazzeto]

Pretty tough stuff. However, Paul is addressing groups here and not individuals in what you posted. He is addressing the Gentiles. However, in the begining of Romans 11, He is speaking about spiritual Jews, or the elect Jews which is made up of the remnant within the nation of Israel.

He’s addressing Christian’s, folks who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and God. These Letters were not address to the unconverted, they were addressed to the Churches, i.e. the Church of Rome… He was address Christians of Gentile origin. But there are no seperate rules for Gentiles or Jews, that is the whole point of these letters. If the Gentile Christians can fall away due to lack of faith, so can the Christians of Jewish origin.

No Adam, this letter was address to Christians. To inform Christians about the importance of continued Faith & Obedience.

 

[2nd_Adam]

And His disciples left Him and walked with Him no more. They were free to, and we are free to leave Him.

This too is supporting the truth about the visible church and invisible church…

The Words of Eternal Life

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. - John 6

 

[2nd_Adam]

He’s addressing Christian’s, folks who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and God. These Letters were not address to the unconverted, they were addressed to the Churches, i.e. the Church of Rome… He was address Christians of Gentile origin. But there are no seperate rules for Gentiles or Jews, that is the whole point of these letters. If the Gentile Christians can fall away due to lack of faith, so can the Christians of Jewish origin.

No Adam, this letter was address to Christians. To inform Christians about the importance of continued Faith & Obedience.

I don’t believe in decisional regeneration, or sinner’s prayer conversions. You cannot accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior… that’s an Arminian unbiblical teaching. Jesus clearly taught that the visible church consisted of the converted and uncoverted, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, legitimate children and bastards in the church (heb 12).

I Never Knew You

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness

 

[crazzeto]

I don’t believe in decisional regeneration, or sinner’s prayer conversions. You cannot accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior… that’s an Arminian unbiblical teaching. Jesus clearly taught that the visible church consisted of the converted and uncoverted, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, legitimate children and bastards in the church (heb 12).

I Never Knew You

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness

Ok then, why are you arguing assurance? There is no aboslute assurance, like Paul says in Romans… Even you, Christian of any origin, can be cut off the Olive Tree.

 

[Thing]

This too is supporting the truth about the visible church and invisible church…

The Words of Eternal Life

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him. - John 6

But we are not talking about coming to the Father we are talking about leaving, yes?

Obviously they were ‘his disciples’ who left Him and walked with Him no more. They were His disciples He said, they thought they believed in Him until they found themselves leaving Him.
Your point is I suppose that they were never saved, but they thought they were, they followed as disciples, but never knew, according to your beliefs, that they were not ‘saved’.

So being ‘saved’ in your theology is quite hopless, you may find that like those disciples, you were never actually saved, but you thought you were called, as they were called by Christ.

 

[Thing]

12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and go to seek that which is gone astray?

 

[Thing]

Acts Of Apostles 14

21 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith: and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Thing]

8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward.

 

[Thing]

If any man will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel, shall save it.

 

[Thing]

18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples also were with him: and he asked them…
…23 And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it; for he that shall lose his life for my sake, shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, and cast away himself?
26 For he that shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him the Son of man shall be ashamed, when he shall come in his majesty, and that of his Father, and of the holy angels.

 

[Vimy_Ridge]

This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.

You are right there and I know this from personal experience. Many Protestants who think that they can lose their salvation are in the same boat as Catholics.

I was led to the Lord as a child but did not really start to take an interest in the faith until my 20s. My pastor at the time always spoke out against what he called the “once saved always saved” doctrine, he was wrong though, when we believe the Gospel we have eternal security.

Only when one realizes that salvation is a 100% free gift that we recieve on faith when we trust in Christ as Saviour can we have piece of mind.

Catholics and Protestants who think that salvation can be lost or that it requires any kind of good works will always be in a precarious situation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Ok then, why are you arguing assurance? There is no aboslute assurance, like Paul says in Romans… Even you, Christian of any origin, can be cut off the Olive Tree.

Again, Paul is not speaking about individuals. He is speaking about Gentile believers as a group. Paul could be addressing the failure and pride of the nation of Israel with the exclusion of outsiders (Gentiles). The best way to interpert Scripture is with the rest of Scripture to avoid an inaccurate conclusion on a topic. Our security is in the promises of God that He makes to those who are actually united to Christ. God does not undo what He has done. Once you are adopted into the kingdom of God based on Christ alone, you are an eternal citizen of the kingdom of light. Rejoice because our security is in the promises of God for those who are in Christ. And we know it is impossible for God to lie. The nation of Israel (visible church) always had a mix of true believers and unbelievers. What is a true jew, but…

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.” - D.A. Carson

 

[promethius]

I would like to apologize if my post was offensive to anyone. That was not my intent.
I would find the idea that salvation is not assured disturbing. That having been said I can say that there is a flaw with the once saved, always saved thology. If you are elect you also regenerate. Election and repentance go hand in hand. So when you sin are you really electt? You see it comes full circle and you still aren’t sure of your salvation.

GramdpaMunster,

therein lies the rub. When you are elect you regenerate, correct if the theory of election as per calvinism is true. So then when you sin, you can’t be elect, right? I mean, in Revelations we see that “Nothing unpure may enter heaven”, so there can be no sin whatsoever by the elect. And yet we see: “there is no man worthy, not one.”

So sin, according to Paul, continues to exist, even for the believers. And per John, it must be expunged (not just covered up) in order to enter heaven. So there MUST be a method by which we are purged from sin. These are clear in the Command of Christ to repent and confess our sins to one another. It’s the very reason He breathed His Spirit on the apostles and told them to take confessions and forgive sins. The other method is through minor purgation of all remaining imperfections before entry into heaven (a belief which MOST christians recognize in some form or other, though most protestants refuse to call this process (it is NOT a place) purgatory)

And while the thought that salvation is NOT assured may be “uncomfortable” for you and others, religion is not about US being comfortable with God conforming to our desires. It is about us conforming our desires to God’s reality. We are told that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling and that we must persevere unto death. These things make it clear that we are NOT to be comfortable and rest on our laurels in regards to our faith. We should remain constantly vigilant against sin and FOR opportunities to do the works of Christ (which, per St Paul, we are ordained by the Holy Spirit to do).