Lack of security in salvation

[Philthy]

That is why ecumencism is a good thing!

Well that is certainly one great aspect of it! The other is learning through dialogue and growing in knowledge of who God is and his love for us.
You left the body of my post entirely unanswered, though. This was supposed to be your big chance to “reciprocate” following my earlier post…forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5973635&postcount=194

 

[guanophore]

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? - Apostle Paul

I think you guys need to answer the Apostle’s questions above. And your answers are?

They are rhetorical questions, 2nd. Your feeling that we need to answer them does not change that fact.

I think many of my separated brethren confuse the love of God with salvation. God so loved the world that He gave His only son that we may be saved. Yet, not all in the world are saved. God loves us so much, He allows us to choose not to be with Him in eternity. He will love us as we walk through the gates of Hell.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

God’s Everlasting Love

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? - Apostle Paul

I think you guys need to answer the Apostle’s questions above. And your answers are?

They are rhetorical questions, 2nd. Your feeling that we need to answer them does not change that fact.

I think many of my separated brethren confuse the love of God with salvation. God so loved the world that He gave His only son that we may be saved. Yet, not all in the world are saved. God loves us so much, He allows us to choose not to be with Him in eternity. He will love us as we walk through the gates of Hell.

All are saved; just not in the context you put it in incorrectly; all also can mean and does mean in this context all tongues, tribes & nations, rich, poor, hungry and filled. etc. Are you new to the Christian faith? Many Christians have a difficult time accepting this doctrin taught by God.

1 john 4- There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 ***We love him, because he first loved us. ***

Would we love God if He did not make the first move? Not according to Scripture.

1 John 5- Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him that begat loveth Him also that is begotten of Him.

1 john 5 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Heb 2 - 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying: “I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.” 13 And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And again: "Here am I and the children whom God has given Me."

John 10 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And*** I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish***

John 10 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one."

John 3 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10- And ***I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. ***

John 17 - as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Do you know God? If you do not believe in eternal security and believe you can lose and regain; you proof you do not know Him and the truth is not in anyone that believes him not; unless you are new to the faith; if you are, then this will open your heart and your love toward God in ways you never thought were possible, but you may not be ready to accept this.

Acts 13 - (the earliest church records) Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. ***And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. ***

Rom 5 -For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is the tip of the iceberg from Scripture concerning the security of the true Christians.

 

[guanophore]

Please don’t gloss over my questions. Could you please answer the Apostle Paul’s questions since it is directly related to the thread topic?

Actually, it is not, 2nd. It is related in your imagination, but that is the only place. Nothing can separate us from His love, but being loved by God does not result in eternal security.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

What a beautiful letter! Thank you for asking me to read it again…
I will be brief with my comments.

First, no where does it say clearly that God knows who is going to Heaven and who is not. It says that he chose us before the foundation of the world in Christ - the us is ambiguous, and the specifics of what is implied by by the term “chose us” is somewhat unclear. I understand some of the INFERENCES that might lead you to conclude what you have stated though, based on the beginning of Chapter 1. But if one keeps reading with the intention of clearly challenging that inference(ie doesnt take it as a given), there is some strong stuff which clearly refutes your claims (at least the way I understand them!)

Eph 2:11-13 Seems to contradict your claims. It clearly articulates that some who* previously were separated from Christ have now been brought in* through faith. This is not clearly a refutation of your position, though. Much more damaging would be Ephesians 5:5 where Paul says exactly what he says in 1Cor:6:9! “Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” This is CLEARLY A WARNING TO BELIEVERS - the same folks he addressed as being “chosen” in Chapter 1.

Why would Paul possibly seek to link the kingdom of God and of Christ with a BEHAVIOR?? And more importantly, WHAT IS THE POINT OF BRINGING IT UP if our actions to change those behaviors have no eternal consequence - either God has chosen us or he hasnt?
I would answer that behaviors clearly matter and have eternal consequences despite the fact that God has chosen us in Christ from the foundation of the world. What say you?

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Who is the them?It is the fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

You have it completely backwards; thought you might want to know because that is a pretty big mistake. Perhaps you are just a new Christian as it seems many are here.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Actually, it is not, 2nd. It is related in your imagination, but that is the only place. Nothing can separate us from His love, but being loved by God does not result in eternal security.

2nd Adam; I’m new, but if this person has 15K posts and believes he can separate himself from the love of God, then let him alone; he will know the truth soon enough. At 15k posts; you are wasting you time since he cannot get past the elementary principles taught in Scripture. I wish you only the best in your faith and hope you live a very long time on earth.

 

[guanophore]

You believe in the sovereignity of man which is not truth. Man make think he is sovereign.

No, Adam. The fact that the sovereignity of God allows men to make the choice to reject Him does not make man more powerful than God. It just means that God permits His creature this freedom.

However, I do agree that humans, as created beings, cannot separate themselves from the love of God. We can separate ourselves from the benefits of His love, and his love permits us to walk away from Him (refuse to be saved), but nothing we can do can stop Him from loving us.

 

[SteveGC]

2nd Adam; I’m new, but if this person has 15K posts and believes he can separate himself from the love of God, then let him alone; he will know the truth soon enough. At 15k posts; you are wasting you time since he cannot get past the elementary principles taught in Scripture. I wish you only the best in your faith and hope you live a very long time on earth.

Hi Piper. Welcome to CAF. The bolded phrase above is about the only thing credible in all of the posts you’ve offered thus far. Stick around awhile…Read a bit before responding…soak it in, carefully so as not to presume what someone believes, or concludes, or what their relationship with Christ truly is. We welcome your dialogue, but we just would want you to get off on the right foot here. Try to remember here that this is Catholic Answers…not Catholic Myth-busters. Ask yourself a hard question before you continue here…are you here to learn what we believe, or refute what you think we believe?

For example…you said “if this person [guanophore] has 15K posts and believes he can separate himself from the love of God, then let him alone”

Now…watch closely…here’s Guan’s post you’re referring to…watch the bold…

guanophore:

Actually, it is not, 2nd. It is related in your imagination, but that is the only place. Nothing can separate us from His love, but being loved by God does not result in eternal security

You claim he said something which he did not. Strike one. The point guan’s making is in his last phrase, that being loved by God does not necessarily result in eternal security. If you’d like to address that, then that would be satisfactory.

Blessings to you, and let us know how we can help you learn our faith. Guan himself is particularly skilled in that department.

 

[guanophore]

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.” - D.A. Carson

This is a false statement. No eternal security can rest with any created being. It is not possible for humans to “secure” anything related to salvation, or eternal life. The fact that we participate in the work of the HS in no way means that it “rests with the believer”. God alone is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[guanophore]

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again. - Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

I am curious to know how Grudem explains away the parable of the seeds.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam; I’m new, but if this person has 15K posts and believes he can separate himself from the love of God, then let him alone; he will know the truth soon enough. At 15k posts; you are wasting you time since he cannot get past the elementary principles taught in Scripture. I wish you only the best in your faith and hope you live a very long time on earth.

Thank you for the kind words brother. I have enjoyed your posts tremendously. Are you related to John Piper?

 

[guanophore]

If you don’t believe in eternal security your religion is this, if you commit grave sins…Now I’m saved, now I’m not, now I’m saved, now I’m not, now I’m saved, now I’m not.

And if you have fallen away from the faith you will not get a second chance, you’re done for. True believers cannot fall away though they can be misled and confused.

Thank God that it is a free gift that we did not earn and cannot lose. If you could earn salvation it was not a gift and God would not give a gift that you could lose.

No, this is not true Vimy. What has happened is that the Reformers departed from the Apostolic Teaching on the nature of salvation. Since they taught that our salvation is not completed in this life, then it is more correct to say that one fails to be united with their heavenly inheritance. There are some apects of salvation that are completed at baptism, some which we work out during our life here, and some that are completed at the end of this life.

You conclusion is also false. The ability to be separated from a free gift does not make it any less a free gift. Some people choose to leave their gift by the wayside.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Boy, you guys like those apostate Scriptures like Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10.

Adam:

I hope you’re joking… I know Martin Luther wanted to throw out he Epistle of James (“That Epistle of Straw!”), The Revelation of St. John & what we know as the Deuterocanonical Books (accepted and used by the Jews BEFORE they were used by the Early Church & used by the Church East & West until the Protestant “Reformation”). Other “Reformers” felt the same way about various books of the New & Old Testaments - All they succeeded in was tossing out the Books they decided to call the Apocrypha - They relied on the opinion of the Jewish Seminary (& Synod) which ran Jamnia from 70 to 130 A.D…

What most Protestants would rather forget is that the Synods which were convened at Jamnia were called to combat the rise of Christianity, and that one of their “remedies” was a list of 12 “Benedictions” (Curses) against the “Birkat Ha Minim” (Followers of the Nazarene) - These curses were to be prayed by anyone who was a “visitor” or “new” to the Synagogue:
12 Benedictions against the Birkat Ha Minim
Birkat Ha-Minim from Answers.com
Hebrew4Christians - Blessing 12 of the Amidah

As you know, Scripture gives us a standard test to use for discerning whether something is coming from the Holy Spirit:
*Now, dear brothers and sisters, regarding your question about the special abilities the Spirit gives us. I don’t want you to misunderstand this. You know that when you were still pagans, you were led astray and swept along in worshiping speechless idols. So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. *
1 Corinthians 12:1-3 NLT (Bible Gateway)

I believe this test should be applied to the product of the School of Jamnia. I believe that once this test is applied to their product, it will become obvious that the School was not operating in the Holy Spirit and that Christians should not accept that School’s decisions regarding Scripture, but should accept those which were reached by the CHURCH, which claimed Jesus Christ as Lord & Master, God & Savior.

And, this is what the Church, and St. Paul the Apostle, had to say about Scripture:

"…from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
​

2 Timothy 3:15-17 NKJV (Bible Gateway)

Here’s the answer for one of your questions - This was accepted and used just this way by many of the Church Fathers from the time of the Apostles.

Yet God did make man imperishable;
He made hum in the image of His own nature.
It was the devil’s envy that brought death into the world,
as those who are is partners will discover.
​

Wisdom 2:23-24 JB
Wisdom 2:23-24 RSV
Wisdom 2:23-24 GNT, DRA
Wisdom Chapter 2 NAB
Wisdom Chapter 2 NJB

I hope this answers the question - Death entered, not because God willed it, but because of the Devil’s envy. Remember that the Early Church accepted this as Scripture and used it for Doctrine and Reproof…

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Philthy]

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Who is the them?It is the fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

You have it completely backwards; thought you might want to know because that is a pretty big mistake. Perhaps you are just a new Christian as it seems many are here.

Hi Timothy Piper and welcome to the discussion!
Thank you for your comments. How very interesting that you read that section of Scripture and arrive at the conclusion that I have it “completely backwards”! I do not consider myself very smart nor spiritually advanced, but I have been around the block a few, times as they say. Perhaps you are new to apologetics? So I would very much like to hear what you have to say in response to what I have said. Given that we are having this exchange in the context of an apologetics forum I am open to hearing your reasoning and defense of your position. Please be advised, however, that opinions stated without support based merely on your personal testimony cannot be considered any more valid than any other persons claims based on their personal opinions. I feel like you rejected my analysis of Paul’s comments without addressing any of the points I brought up. The main thrust of my position is as follows:
**Paul wouldnt “warn” the believers about such behaviors if they did not have the potential to exclude them from the kingdom of Heaven. ** And he does warn them - repeatedly on this very point in 1 Cor 6, Ephesians 5, and in his letter to the Galatians. As far as my simple mind can tell you did nothing to address this point. You did ask some questions, but I recommend you also supply the answers which allow us to see how those answers refute my position.

Blessings!

 

[ryanoneil]

Please see the red text above. It sure sounds very similar to the P in TULIP.

It probably depends on what brand of Calvanist you are (and I don’t know the differences).

Catholics believe that that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course. They are predestined to grace. Those who stay the course are predestined to glory.

Here is a good CA article compairing Catholicism and TULIP.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

 

[2nd_Adam]

It probably depends on what brand of Calvanist you are (and I don’t know the differences).

Catholics believe that that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course. They are predestined to grace. Those who stay the course are predestined to glory.

Here is a good CA article compairing Catholicism and TULIP.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

I did a quick read it appears to be good stuff. I appreciate Catholics who came from the Calvinists camp to represent Reformed Christians accurately. We are just ending the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread with over 1,000 post limit. We will be having version two on the topic, calling it “Sufficiency of grace”. Since I am a Christian first, Evangelical 2nd, and a Calvinist 3rd, some of the Catholics on that thread want to bring up TULIP in our discussion on the new thread of “sufficiency of grace”. I agreed to do that with them. So, here’s a chance to examine and test TULIP within the topic of the sufficiency of grace with us. Please join us when we start that new thread. I personally believe that ex-Calvinist s like Atkins and Hahn converting to the Catholic Faith can only do this by rejecting sola scriptura. However, I believe if we stay within the Scriptures, then the truth of TULIP will be revealed to all who hold to Scripture as the supreme rule of faith for life and doctrine.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I did a quick read it appears to be good stuff. I appreciate Catholics who came from the Calvinists camp to represent Reformed Christians accurately. We are just ending the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread with over 1,000 post limit. We will be having version two on the topic, calling it “Sufficiency of grace”. Since I am a Christian first, Evangelical 2nd, and a Calvinist 3rd, some of the Catholics on that thread want to bring up TULIP in our discussion on the new thread of “sufficiency of grace”. I agreed to do that with them. So, here’s a chance to examine and test TULIP within the topic of the sufficiency of grace with us. Please join us when we start that new thread. I personally believe that ex-Calvinist s like Atkins and Hahn converting to the Catholic Faith can only do this by rejecting sola scriptura. However, I believe if we stay within the Scriptures, then the truth of TULIP will be revealed to all who hold to Scripture as the supreme rule of faith for life and doctrine.

Actually we Catholic brought up TULIP many many times since we know all points of Calvinism are connected. He frequently skirted around the questions and now that the “sufficiency of Christ” is near end, he decided to include that in part two (on no prompting on our part), which could’ve been answered in the first place.

I’m glad you want to dialogue with other Catholics, Adam, but let’s not misrepresent the facts, all right?

 

[Tomb54]

I did a quick read it appears to be good stuff. I appreciate Catholics who came from the Calvinists camp to represent Reformed Christians accurately. We are just ending the “Sufficiency of Christ” thread with over 1,000 post limit. We will be having version two on the topic, calling it “Sufficiency of grace”. Since I am a Christian first, Evangelical 2nd, and a Calvinist 3rd, some of the Catholics on that thread want to bring up TULIP in our discussion on the new thread of “sufficiency of grace”. I agreed to do that with them. So, here’s a chance to examine and test TULIP within the topic of the sufficiency of grace with us. Please join us when we start that new thread.** I personally believe that ex-Calvinist s like Atkins and Hahn converting to the Catholic Faith can only do this by rejecting sola scriptura.** However, I believe if we stay within the Scriptures, then the truth of TULIP will be revealed to all who hold to Scripture as the supreme rule of faith for life and doctrine.

By rejecting sola scripture they are only rejecting a belief that is not biblical as the bible on several occasion mention Oral sacred Tradition to be follow along with the epistles. Think I will look at that new tread since I would like to understand the Calvinist outlook on TULIP so I understand their views more.

 

[2nd_Adam]

By rejecting sola scripture they are only rejecting a belief that is not biblical as the bible on several occasion mention Oral sacred Tradition to be follow along with the epistles. Think I will look at that new tread since I would like to understand the Calvinist outlook on TULIP so I understand their views more.

Please feel free to discuss TULIP on this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400508

:flowers: These TULIPS are for you.

 

[ccolley2]

You believe in the sovereignity of man which is not truth. Man make think he is sovereign.

God gave Man the gift of “free will” otherwise, we could never be free to choose God…Hence the OT verse that says that what is put before you is death or life so choose…and again…“as for me and my house we choose Life”. God wants us to choose him, but the sad thing is that we will always have the “free will” to choose to do evil instead of good. The entire book of Job is about Job’s free will…with all the horrible things that happened to him, he could have rejected God, but he didn’t. He had perfect free will. So do we.
CC