Lack of security in salvation

[Timothy_Piper]

Steve & Guanaphore

I am out of this thread because you have iterated to me that the apologetics forum is not for anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the doctrines you teach. Both of you are obviously senior members based on the time you have been here and the number of posts you have posted; so who can disagree with the seniors?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Steve & Guanaphore

I am out of this thread because you have iterated to me that the apologetics forum is not for anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the doctrines you teach. Both of you are obviously senior members based on the time you have been here and the number of posts you have posted; so who can disagree with the seniors?

Hi Tim,

Join us on a non-apologetics thread over here… Guan and I are good old friends.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=400508

 

[SteveGC]

Steve & Guanaphore

I am out of this thread because you have iterated to me that the apologetics forum is not for anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the doctrines you teach. Both of you are obviously senior members based on the time you have been here and the number of posts you have posted; so who can disagree with the seniors?

I’m no senior member.

And I don’t say you can’t debate Christian theology here with us. Indeed, apologetics is for healthy debate. And all are welcome to discuss their disagreements. But many do come here to proselytize Catholics, looking at us as a mission field, and we take issue with that. And you’re right, only the Spirit ultimately converts hearts, but He certainly uses the instruments of men and women in the faith to do so, otherwise there’d be no need for us to spread the good news, would there?

We’re not saying this is a venue for you to just sit back and listen to us. I just am telling you that we don’t need you to tell us what we are, or what we believe. We know those things better than you. And your first several posts addressed us essentially as immature, ‘infant’ Christians who don’t trust Christ for our salvation. Not a productive thing to say to devout, weathered Christians.

In fact, in your post just a few back to this one…you said this…

That because you believe men are the primary reason for mens salvation

And that’s what I’m talking about…you are stating what we believe, not asking us if we believe that, or listening to our beliefs. That’s what aggravates us, and that’s the primary reason for challenging you on your initial demeanor in this thread. Again, I just wanted to get you off on the right track.

I’d actually love for you to stay on this thread and debate with us. I welcome it. I think guan would love it too.

 

[guanophore]

The parable of the “soils” are the representative of the hearts; the first three are false professors, only the 3rd soil has been properly prepared to receive the seed (the Word), the soil preparer is God and you should notice the fine print; only the 4th soil produced fruit, the visible sign of the Christian, the rest were not Christians who lost their salvation, they were never saved. Notice the one who fell on the hard path and the devil came and snatched it away, the next falls on rocky soil and withered away because they had “no root” etc. Jesus explains the parable very clearly.

Your interpretation is not consistent with the textual evidence, Tim. There is nothing in there about “false professors”. I suggest that this is a modern interpolation inserted into the text to accomodate Reformed theology.

I agree, though that the soil preparer is God. However, the fruit is by no means the “fine print”. On the contrary, you have missed the “fine print”. 75% of the seeds sprouted. That means, the soils received them, and the plants grew. This is, as Jesus said, the people who “immediatly receive the Word with joy”. He explains that they then fail to persist in faith, the cares of this world and tribulation withering them. It is clear they had the very same start as the fourth fruitful seed.

 I my opinion; people who believe they can lose their salvation; never had it to begin with or they are babes in Christ still sucking on the milk and eating the strained carrots and not growing.

Perhaps they are immature in faith, not understanding the nature of salvation. I also think it is misleading to say “lose salvation”. The Apostles taught that salvation is not completed in this life, so it is impossible to “lose” that which was not yet attained.

  God will not waste time taking up residence in a life, just to abandon it later; that makes no sense whatsoever and goes against the various places where it clearly states "no one" can remove from Christ that which the Father has given.

I don’t think God abandons anyone, ever. People do, however, abandon God, and in His infinite love, He allows them to leave if they wish. No one can snatch them out of His hand, but they can jump out! Jesus is clear in the explanation that it was lack of root and failure to persist during suffering that cause them to be withered.

I would venture to guess you reject many aspects of the Bible, such as OSAS, Sola scriptura ect calling it invented for sure;

I reject no aspects of the bible. I do, however, reject the modern innovative interpretations of it that depart from the Apostolic Teachings.

yet when challenged with immaculate conception or perpetual virginity to name 2 of many, which are not remotely implicit, like OSAS and Sola Scriptura are very implicit to the point where it is almost explicit.

Yes. I can see where the doctrines are extrapolated from Scripture.

It is what you have been taught and what you choose to trust for your path to heaven.  To each according to their believe and to each will be judged according to those beliefs.

With respect, you really don’t know what I have been taught. You may not realize this, but many of us here on CAF have had many decades among our separated brethren.

 

[guanophore]

Really; it seems to me that apologetics is a venue for the Catholic to sharpen their defense of their faith; should they do that within or against themselves?

There are certainly many poorly catechized Catholics about who will provide grist for the mill. But my point was that CAF is not here to provide you with a mission field from which you can glean converts, or insult our faith.

 Since you say I am in the wrong venue because I am not asking questions, but showing through Scripture that some of your doctrines are contrary to the Bible, to which you might defend these doctrines you affirm as Biblical and vice versa.

I said you are in the wrong venue because you seem to be here to preach to us. If you go back and look at the forum rules, you will see that this venue is open to explore differences in belief. You seem to have come here with a preconceived notion that the way you interpret the bible is “biblical” and the way we interpret it is not. This mindset is not very conducive to discussion.

Besides, you did not ask anyone to show you why we believed these things, you just said “you are wrong”.

I guess there is no venue for anyone who does not agree with your position, so why do they allow Protestants in the forum in the first place? So they can be still, listen, and hopefully be converted; some venue.

I think it is a given that Protestants will not agree. That is why they are Protestants, after all.

It is possible to discuss our disagreements amicably. However, if you only came here to tell us that we are wrong, and try to show us the “right” (the way you see things). then no, I don’t think CAF is the right venue for you. You may need to create a blog, and post your ideas for the world to read.

I guess the other issue would be is you must believe a person can actually and really convert someone although this would be contrary to the teaching of God and the writers of the Bible.

No, I do not believe that. However, every successful evangelist I have known believes that if he preaches the Word with sincerity and Truth, persons who are called of God will respond and be converted.

It is interesting that one of the rules is that no one is allowed to “proselytize” Catholics, convert to another faith or religion, which tells me that the writer of the rules believes that men have the power of conversion, which is simply not a Biblical principal.

Well, people convert other people every day. There are a lot of people that come here to make converts. I just had a computer geek try to convert me to Macintosh the other day.

The rule against proseltytizing is not there because we think it is possible for one man to get another man to leave his faith or religion, but because the attempts that some people make to do so disrupt the purpose and mission of the forum.

God is the only one who can convert the soul to Christianity and those that are already Christians cannot lose their conversion according to Scripture;

We read it differently, don’t we?

therefore the writer of the rule must feel as you do that one can be converted away from God by man or Satan.  If it wasn't so serious it would almost be funny, but it is not.

I think that you believe that, if you can show the Truth of scripture to us, that we might be willing to follow the guidance of the HS to a proper bible church.

 

[guanophore]

That because you believe men are the primary reason for mens salvation; whereas we are only secondary.

No, Tim, it is not. If you want to have a discussion, it goes better if you don’t start out telling the other person what they believe. In a dialogue, each person gets to say what they believe, and why. Would you like to try it?

The relation between the Father and the Son is one we cannot comprehend, but what is clear is that those whom the Father has chosen to give to the Son are the Bride of Christ and when the entire church is redeemed, the bride will be presented back to the father and the church will worship God for evermore.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

Just to clarify; "it is those to whom God has set His love on", which I speak and the Bible speaks.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Do you read this passage and understand it to mean that Jesus did not love Jerusalem?

This is a statement that demonstrates the paradox of freewill; which no human can fully understand; yet without God removing the covering from their eyes and ears, they cannot come to Him.

At least we are in agreement on this point. Latin Catholics refer to this as “prevenient grace”.

 

[guanophore]

Luke8:14

Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Mark 4

And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.

Matthew 13

“Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

I can not explain better than the Lord.

No, I don’t think you can. And since your “explanation” is incompatible with His, we are not able to accept it.

 

[guanophore]

Steve & Guanaphore

I am out of this thread because you have iterated to me that the apologetics forum is not for anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the doctrines you teach. Both of you are obviously senior members based on the time you have been here and the number of posts you have posted; so who can disagree with the seniors?

Well, this is sad to see, Tim. It is too bad that you do not know how to have a discussion, and that you somehow feel compelled to tell others what they believe, rather than allowing them to express their own beliefs.

The reason we are senior members is because we have spent a long time and many posts having intense dialogues with persons such as yourself who disagree with the Apostolic Teaching.

 

[Philthy]

I may have misunderstood your position; this is what i believe you were trying to confer; that 1 Cor and Eph 5 is Paul warning Christians that they could loose their salvation if they change to the behavior described. If I am correct in that assumption…then you are not correct.

OK, good - this is dialogue! You disagree with my conclusions and should go on to refute what I presented and reaffirm your own position…

.I Corinthians, Pauls restates the lsit in Ephesians and says, such were some of you; the implication is you were like this before you were saved, now you are not so walk and live like a Christian.

That’s not merely an implication, my friend, that is the actual statement! The question is WHY did Paul say? I maintain my position that his bringing it up, and his clearly associating it with a loss of inheritance to the kingdom of God tells us why he brings it up. That reason is that it is important-eternally- how you live your life as a Christian. You havent actually addressed this issue in your brief comments.

I also believe this would have been read to a group of both believers and nonbelievers and a warning to non-believers who may have been influenced by the false teachers which are in the paragraphs either before or after.

I find reason to criticize these beliefs. The first reason is that Paul clearly addresses the letter to the believers at Ephesia. You and Piper acknowledge the beginning chapters, and all the comments contained therein, as being addressed exclusively to believers who have been saved. Then later when Paul writes some things - in the very same letter - that appear to you to contradict the assumptions you made based on the earlier chapters, you suddenly assume he must not be speaking to the same saved believers? That is illogical, friend. What you need to be reconsidering are some of the conclusions that you arrived at based upon PART of Pauls message. There is no indication Paul’s audience has changed at all. The only thing that has become clear is that Paul tells them that their behavior has eternal consequences.

Anyway, thanks for the gracious welcome, much appreciated and glad to be here, My etiquette obviously needs some polishing.

God bless.

Thank you as well! Keep up the good work…

Blessings

 

[Carlan]

Well, we Catholics believe that Christ opened the doors of heaven for us but that we still need to walk through those doors. He will not drag us through them against our will out of love and respect for us as individuals. To walk through those doors, we need to trust in Jesus but we must also do his will and follow in his way. Lip service is not sufficient.
And yes, since we are not the judges, we will wait for Jesus to judge us and not presume that we are saved simply because we claim allegiance to Christ. It takes more than that.

Right Paul ,Adam 2,has been preaching this kind of Calvinistic once saved always saved false doctrine at Catholic Answers from the fist day he posted here. And I'm frankly sick and tired of such wind bag spreading of false Christian doctrine. God forgive me for my loss of niceness:blush:Carlan.

 

[guanophore]

Right Paul ,Adam 2,has been preaching this kind of Calvinistic once saved always saved false doctrine at Catholic Answers from the fist day he posted here. And I’m frankly sick and tired of such wind bag spreading of false Christian doctrine. God forgive me for my loss of niceness:blush:Carlan.

That is why he is here, Carlan! If you are too frustrated, then put his posts on “ignore” so you dont have to read them. Pray for him every day. This goes a long way to help with niceness.

 

[Carlan]

That is why he is here, Carlan! If you are too frustrated, then put his posts on “ignore” so you dont have to read them. Pray for him every day. This goes a long way to help with niceness.

Yes , as you do confirm with your patience for holding on. But then you have what it takes, and the moxy to go with it. Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Right Paul ,Adam 2,has been preaching this kind of Calvinistic once saved always saved false doctrine at Catholic Answers from the fist day he posted here. And I’m frankly sick and tired of such wind bag spreading of false Christian doctrine. God forgive me for my loss of niceness:blush:Carlan.

Paul’s prayer is my prayer and heart towards you brother. I love you as a brother in the Lord.

Thanksgiving and Prayer

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. - Ephesians

 

[joann1957]

Why is it the OSAS followers quote Pauls one verse, and disregard the rest of the prophets and or books in the bible. We are saved by faith, but one must define true faith in Christ…

Matt, Mark, Luke, John,and Revelations should not be disregarded when interpreting Gods laws ,Faith and commandment keeping.

When we do not fear sin the Holy Spirit is unable to convict us of sin and the need to repent. At a weak moment in our life sin can grab us and slowly lead us further and further away from God. Sadly, we probably won’t even know that this is happening because we have shut down the Holy Spirit’s ability to convict us of our sin and the need to repent and get back on the right path.

 

[FiberZilla]

I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).
Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell. You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession. It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time. You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once. Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity. You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way. Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything. This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.

Your understanding of catholic theology is close, but a little shakey. The hammer situation would suggest that the sinenr didn’t have full consent of the will which is a necessary component of mortal sin. But you are absolutely right… Catholics are not allowed to say that they are saved. That would make them guilty of another sin called presumption. The Bible however says that we can know.

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13

Not having assurance of our eternal security is a very sad thing indeed, not what God intended for those who love him.

 

[Thing]

…watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

What happens if the devil devours you.

 

[guanophore]

I have always been tought that your salvation was paid in full when Christ died. When Christ said “it is finished” he paid for all your sins, past present and future. If you are elect you can’t go to hell. (Of course if you don’t repent your not elect).

This is interesting. I did not know that Lutherans were Calvanistic like this. Did you learn this in the Lutheran communion, or were you taught this elsewhere?

.Catholic theology as I understand it seems to teach that if you die in a state of mortal sin you will go to hell.

I think this is pretty much the case, thought Sister Foustina implies maybe not. However, your problem might be with your understanding of a mortal sin. It is called that because it is the “sin leading to death”.

You can believe and be baptised, go to mass and prey, but if you mess up and commit a mortal sin you will not be saved if you die before you go to confession.

No, this is not true. there are exetenuating circumstances around confession. However, this is the most important distinction about mortal sin. One does not engage in it by “messing up”, ie,. making a mistake. FOr a sin to be mortal, it must be grave matter, and the person must know it is grave, and the persom, knowing the consequences, must deliberately and freely choose to do it. One does not fail to be united with one’s heavenly inheritance by “messing up”,. but one can fail if one willfully chooses to spurn the blood that bought them, which is what a mortal sin is.

It seems to me that this would lead a person to be in a very miserable state, walking on eggshells all the time.  You could be faithfull all your life, but slip up once.

I would say yes, it does, if a person does not understand and walk in grace. it is God who preserves us from sin, not ourselves. There are things that we can do, and should do, but we are not able, of ourselves, to prevent ourselves from sinning. A person who walks ingrace by faith will not be miserable or fearful. God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and discipline. And again, the sin that leads to death is not a “slip up”, but the culmination of a heart and mind NOT walking with God.

 Say you are working in your shop, hit yourself with a hammer and let out a string of profanity.  You jump in your car to go to the church and go to confession but die in a car wreck on the way.  Your faithfull life counts for nothing and your mistake counts for everything.  This sense of insecurity could not lead to a state of happiness or a sense of well being.

No, I would think not. Who would live like that? 'That person needs some spiritual formation, and to read the catechism!

 

[guanophore]

---

I get so tired of rehashing this Once Saved Always Saved nonsense!

Perhaps a little furlough over in social justice ffor you?

 

[guanophore]

That is a false understanding of being born again…One’s life must be transformed, can you read Johns letters and see yourself in them? are fruits of a transformed life evident in your actions and decisions? have you made Jesus the Christ the LORD of your life?

Being born again is a change of heart—a spiritual transformation

MfM, of the four seeds in the parable, how many sprouted? How many persevered? Are you claiming that the 50% that did not were never sprouted?

 

[guanophore]

And you have no doubt of your salvation, no matter what terrible sins you commit? Does any Protestant really believe that? I don’t believe they do.

Too many of them do.