Laity Worshiping like Priests?

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Hello, I’m fairly new here and just popping in and out with my many questions. 🙂

As a recent “revert,” I’ve noticed some changes during the Mass that I’m rather uncomfortable with. For example, the laity are raising their hands during many parts of the Mass, and making many of the same hand motions/gestures (forgive me if I am not using the correct terminology) that the Priest employs.

The worst, to me, is the raising of hands for the Our Father– and many in the pews even holding hands with their neighbor, upraised, during this prayer.

I don’t mean to be offensive to anyone who is moved to a deeper worship experience by all of this… but… I dunno… having been around the Evangelical block, it just doesn’t seem “Catholic” to me, if that makes any sense? It just seems to me like the laity behaving like Priests…?

Could anybody shed some light on these new practices? Also, do I have to join in? Thus far, I’ve just kept my hands quietly folded on the pew during Mass, as I was taught to do as a child. Is this posture still acceptable???

By the way, oh how I miss the Communion Rail!!! 😦
 
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Photini:
Hello, I’m fairly new here and just popping in and out with my many questions. 🙂

As a recent “revert,” I’ve noticed some changes during the Mass that I’m rather uncomfortable with. For example, the laity are raising their hands during many parts of the Mass, and making many of the same hand motions/gestures (forgive me if I am not using the correct terminology) that the Priest employs.

The worst, to me, is the raising of hands for the Our Father– and many in the pews even holding hands with their neighbor, upraised, during this prayer.

I don’t mean to be offensive to anyone who is moved to a deeper worship experience by all of this… but… I dunno… having been around the Evangelical block, it just doesn’t seem “Catholic” to me, if that makes any sense? It just seems to me like the laity behaving like Priests…?

Could anybody shed some light on these new practices? Also, do I have to join in? Thus far, I’ve just kept my hands quietly folded on the pew during Mass, as I was taught to do as a child. Is this posture still acceptable???

By the way, oh how I miss the Communion Rail!!! 😦
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It rises out of the charismatic movement. I don’t think it’s really a good development.
 
The Orans posture for the Our Father is hardly a dishonor to it. Cardinal George prefers that posture for the congregation during the Mass. Holding Hands I agree is a little too “kumbaya” but not the Orans. It is merely one opening ones hands to God. There was thought that the new edition of the GIRM would mandate it as the proper posture, that did not happen sadly. It would have put an end to hand holding.
 
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NWUArmyROTC:
The Orans posture for the Our Father is hardly a dishonor to it. Cardinal George prefers that posture for the congregation during the Mass. Holding Hands I agree is a little too “kumbaya” but not the Orans. It is merely one opening ones hands to God. There was thought that the new edition of the GIRM would mandate it as the proper posture, that did not happen sadly. It would have put an end to hand holding.
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They will never put an end to the handholding. I would be willing to bet you on that one.
 
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palmas85:
They will never put an end to the handholding. I would be willing to bet you on that one.
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They WON’T put an end to handholding. To say that a couple or a mother and child cannot hold hands would be too far.
However, even in Cleveland, they encourage orans to discourage hand holding as a group.

To the OP…I do believe that the orans position is for the Priest as instructions are given by the Vatican to the priest for use and never for the laity. Individual Bishops believe “if it doesn’t say it, it must be allowed.” so check with your Bishop.

As for hand holding, what are there, five Bishops in the US that encourage it as a group? Again, check your Diocese. But no matter what if someone feels uncomfortable doing either close your eyes and fold your hands. Pray for clarification from the Vatican. It might help or could be a cue for the Bishops to find another loophole.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
They WON’T put an end to handholding. To say that a couple or a mother and child cannot hold hands would be too far.
However, even in Cleveland, they encourage orans to discourage hand holding as a group.

To the OP…I do believe that the orans position is for the Priest as instructions are given by the Vatican to the priest for use and never for the laity. Individual Bishops believe “if it doesn’t say it, it must be allowed.” so check with your Bishop.

As for hand holding, what are there, five Bishops in the US that encourage it as a group? Again, check your Diocese. But no matter what if someone feels uncomfortable doing either close your eyes and fold your hands. Pray for clarification from the Vatican. It might help or could be a cue for the Bishops to find another loophole.
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We used to hold hands at our church until our priest out a stop to it some years ago. I am uncomfortable holding someone’s hand in church, and others should not force it on someone who has their hands folded in prayer. It feels like they are groping you when they try to dislogde your hands! :o
 
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paramedicgirl:
We used to hold hands at our church until our priest out a stop to it some years ago. I am uncomfortable holding someone’s hand in church, and others should not force it on someone who has their hands folded in prayer. It feels like they are groping you when they try to dislogde your hands! :o
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I particularly love the double whammy of having someone grab your hand and then hold it up in the air in a kind of group-orans, Riverdance mega love-fest. I makes me go all squishy inside. 😉

As Nancy Reagan would say, “Just say no”. 👍
 
Hand-holding. It’s like gift-giving and obligatory hello kisses–once it starts, it’s hard to stop without seeming like a grouch.

That’s what I found most immediately offensive: it’s the type of practice that imposes itself on the other party, making it awkward for them to refuse.

That alone should have made most of us hesitant. Even more important, though, the posture makes our union–our togetherness–which comes as a consequence of our union with God, seem like the prerequisite to our union with God.

Through Christ, we’re one with the whole Body–angels, saints…everybody. We’re no more connected because we hold hands, and we’re no less connected with the heavenly hosts just because we aren’t holding hands (or wings, or whatever).

It all just seems too emotionally and sensory- driven.
Peace.
John
 
john ennis:
That alone should have made most of us hesitant. Even more important, though, the posture makes our union–our togetherness–which comes as a consequence of our union with God, seem like the prerequisite to our union with God.

Through Christ, we’re one with the whole Body–angels, saints…everybody. We’re no more connected because we hold hands, and we’re no less connected with the heavenly hosts just because we aren’t holding hands (or wings, or whatever).

It all just seems too emotionally and sensory- driven.
Peace.
John
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John, I’ve been struggling with how to verbalize my objection to the whole hand-holding thing and then you go and express my thoughts so accurately. 😃 Thanks for giving me some clarity.
 
The orans posture is for the priest only. Laity should not be doing this. It is in the rubrics.

The hand holding seems to be some kind of protestant adaptation.
 
john ennis:
Hand-holding. It’s like gift-giving and obligatory hello kisses–once it starts, it’s hard to stop without seeming like a grouch.

That’s what I found most immediately offensive: it’s the type of practice that imposes itself on the other party, making it awkward for them to refuse.

That alone should have made most of us hesitant. Even more important, though, the posture makes our union–our togetherness–which comes as a consequence of our union with God, seem like the prerequisite to our union with God.

Through Christ, we’re one with the whole Body–angels, saints…everybody. We’re no more connected because we hold hands, and we’re no less connected with the heavenly hosts just because we aren’t holding hands (or wings, or whatever).

It all just seems too emotionally and sensory- driven.
Peace.
John
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Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner! Congratulations, this has got to be the post of the year!
SPOT ON!
 
john ennis:
Hand-holding. It’s like gift-giving and obligatory hello kisses–once it starts, it’s hard to stop without seeming like a grouch.

That’s what I found most immediately offensive: it’s the type of practice that imposes itself on the other party, making it awkward for them to refuse.

That alone should have made most of us hesitant. Even more important, though, the posture makes our union–our togetherness–which comes as a consequence of our union with God, seem like the prerequisite to our union with God.

Through Christ, we’re one with the whole Body–angels, saints…everybody. We’re no more connected because we hold hands, and we’re no less connected with the heavenly hosts just because we aren’t holding hands (or wings, or whatever).

It all just seems too emotionally and sensory- driven.
Peace.
John
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What a great post.
 
Wow, this thread about hand-holding and “orans” position during the Pater Noster is entirely different from the others. 😃

For some reason I feel at home here. Would it be too much to ask for a group hug? 😉

I think that John got it right also. When the Pater Noster is said I close my eyes, cross my arms, and bow my head. As far as I’m concerned, my unity with the rest of the congregation is a given. I don’t need to get distracted by a scramble to connect materially with my neighbours in order to feel united with them. Neither do I need to raise my hands in the air, as the priest is offering our collective prayers at that time, with his hands outstretched, as is his role as priest and representative of Christ.

Whenever I think of how uncomfortable the hand-holding makes me personally, I think of Father Bob Bedard. What was it that he said in one of his videos again? He said it in his good-natured sarcastic tone that I laugh at every time I hear him use it. He said something like “… and of course, when you’re praying in a group, someone will want to hold hands…” :rolleyes:

God bless,

Agricola
 
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Photini:
Hello, I’m fairly new here and just popping in and out with my many questions. 🙂

As a recent “revert,” I’ve noticed some changes during the Mass that I’m rather uncomfortable with. For example, the laity are raising their hands during many parts of the Mass, and making many of the same hand motions/gestures (forgive me if I am not using the correct terminology) that the Priest employs.

The worst, to me, is the raising of hands for the Our Father– and many in the pews even holding hands with their neighbor, upraised, during this prayer.

I don’t mean to be offensive to anyone who is moved to a deeper worship experience by all of this… but… I dunno… having been around the Evangelical block, it just doesn’t seem “Catholic” to me, if that makes any sense? It just seems to me like the laity behaving like Priests…?

Could anybody shed some light on these new practices? Also, do I have to join in? Thus far, I’ve just kept my hands quietly folded on the pew during Mass, as I was taught to do as a child. Is this posture still acceptable???

By the way, oh how I miss the Communion Rail!!! 😦
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Hi there! I’m new here too. We have the same feelings you do about the hand holding and hand raising. We were really surprised to see that happening the first time we went to Mass. It looked like the same things that people do in my mom’s non-denom church. We do not join in. We don’t hold hands with anyone during the Our Father-we just clasp our hands and lower our heads.

Unfortunately, we were taught at RCIA on Monday that praying with hands uplifted is the way we ought to be praying. She said it’s ancient (OK fine) and that it’s the proper position for prayer, meaning we all should be doing it. (Not fine). She gave us the impression that next week and thereafter that is how we will be saying our opening/closing prayers in class.

My own *impression *of the Orans (?) position during Mass is that it blurs the lines of priest and laity. An impression compounded yesterday at my kids’ Catholic school where I overheard a teacher telling preschoolers to “wave hi to Father”. I looked for the priest but only the deacon was there. Now, I could be wrong, but I don’t think deacons are called Father. How confusing to the kids. Sorry-little side comment.

Andrea
 
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Agricola:
Wow, this thread about hand-holding and “orans” position during the Pater Noster is entirely different from the others. 😃

For some reason I feel at home here. Would it be too much to ask for a group hug? 😉

I think that John got it right also. When the Pater Noster is said I close my eyes, cross my arms, and bow my head. As far as I’m concerned, my unity with the rest of the congregation is a given. I don’t need to get distracted by a scramble to connect materially with my neighbours in order to feel united with them. Neither do I need to raise my hands in the air, as the priest is offering our collective prayers at that time, with his hands outstretched, as is his role as priest and representative of Christ.
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You are right on here Agricola! 👍
 
The constant back and forth about hand-holding and raising our hands to pray Etc. was covered by Fr. Mitch on EWTN. He said this just takes the focus off Jesus, which makes the devil very happy.
 
One of the few things my priest has done that I disagree with is to encourage the orans position during the Our Father. I mentioned to him once that I didn’t think it was allowed during Mass because we weren’t suppose to be mimicing the priest. He said that the Our Father is a prayer we say together so he didn’t see a problem (as opposed to if people were holding up their hands during the consecration). He also mentioned that it is an established prayerful position within the Church and the subject of many ancient icons have their hands in the orans position. However, he does discourage hand holding so at least I no longer have to experience the weekly anxiety of whether I appear rude by not extending my hand to others during the Our Father.
 
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maryalene:
One of the few things my priest has done that I disagree with is to encourage the orans position during the Our Father. I mentioned to him once that I didn’t think it was allowed during Mass because we weren’t suppose to be mimicing the priest. He said that the Our Father is a prayer we say together so he didn’t see a problem (as opposed to if people were holding up their hands during the consecration). He also mentioned that it is an established prayerful position within the Church and the subject of many ancient icons have their hands in the orans position. However, he does discourage hand holding so at least I no longer have to experience the weekly anxiety of whether I appear rude by not extending my hand to others during the Our Father.
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Here, let him know that the Orans position could easily be pagan in the Catacombs…
Two of the most important artistic symbols that we find are the good shepherd and the orans or the standing figure in the position of prayer that we see so prominently in the catacombs. …[W]hat is very important to recognize is that both of these symbols are actually old pagan symbols that had been around in the Roman world for quite some time, and in fact even within the catacombs it’s very difficult to tell sometimes when one of these paintings is Christian or pagan, so that while we have this figure of the shepherd with the sheep draped over his shoulders or standing dutifully at his feet, we now may tend to think of that as reflecting the gospel stories of Jesus of the lost sheep or Jesus as the good shepherd from the Gospel of John. In point of fact, from Roman perspective, this is the virtue of philanthropy, of love of humanity, and it’s one of the most important virtues of Roman civic and public life. The Christians seem to take it over very readily and apply it to the gospel virtues as well. In the case of the orans figure…, this is the old pagan virtue of piety, of loyalty to the state, and so the person standing with eyes up cast toward heaven and hands in a gesture of appeal to the gods could have been seen by a pagan as a sign of loyalty to the state, loyalty to the old gods.<<
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From here…
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/paganism.html

Ask him why he would want to encourage as prayer posture that may be Historically Pagan, when we can encourage a posture that is Historically Catholic. Up until the 70’s, we folded our hands.
 
The use of the orans position by the faithful leads to another distraction that I’ve complained about before. People with their arms extended at waist level, palms up, almost reflexively make a “back atcha” motion when responding “and also with you.” It looks like their throwing an imaginary beach ball back to the priest, and the constant motion is extremely distracting.
Am I the only one bothered by this?
 
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