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OhioBob
Guest
The eastern rites (Byzantine et. al.) seem to do quite nicely without it as well.
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CatholicSam
Guest
Oh, me too!!! I was incredibly disappointed when the beautiful marble Communion rail (along with the most beautiful pulpit I’ve ever seen) was removed from my old church when it was recently renovated, even though it wasn’t used for Holy Communion. That church was so beautiful (still is), but it’s got that modern feel to it nowBy the way, oh how I miss the Communion Rail!!!
. Many protestant churches serve communion at a rail, even.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
And then I have a question–what does “My Christianity is outside of the Holy Mass” mean exactly? Shouldn’t our Christianity be both in and outside the Holy Mass? Again the Mass is not our private worship service–it is a community worship.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
How does one get to know these people and check on them at home if we are afraid to make contact with them at church and I don’t think I said it was unchristian to not want to hold someones hand during Mass–I even said I prefer not to–what I said was that it strikes me as unchristian to be “afraid” to. A person who is afraid of that contact is not going to seek these people out outside of Mass. Finally I never said it had to be a physical touch–I simply gave an example of how–even though I’d prefer not to–the act of holding the hand of someone next to me when it was offered at the Our Father ended up enriching my life.
And then I have a question–what does “My Christianity is outside of the Holy Mass” mean exactly? Shouldn’t our Christianity be both in and outside the Holy Mass? Again the Mass is not our private worship service–it is a community worship.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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netmilsmom
Guest
Making contact with someone does not mean physically touching them. We can talk to people and they will get more out of it than a handshake at mass. That is what I mean.
How about some consideration for “personal space”. What about someone who has been mugged, or sexually abused. Why is it that they are wrong to be “afraid” to touch another?
When I pray with people, our souls are in union. What do the angels and Saints do? They don’t have physical bodies. We are all in Union at Mass without physically touching.
That’s what my hubby did at his Protestant church, I’m a Catholic.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
You cannot be forced to hold someones hand–you simply keep your hands together, head bowed down and pray the Our Father. I don’t think anyone is on this thread is saying you have too or you’re unchristian. And of course we are united at Mass without holding hands.
As to comfort zones–and this has nothing to do with holding hands at Mass during the Our Father–I don’t think we are called to stay in them. I don’t think St Francis was in his comfort zone when he got down from his horse and hugged the lepper and I don’t think Mother Teresa was in her comfort zone when she left everything to care for the poor. Evangelizing is not in most peoples comfort zone–but the Gospel is pretty clear we are to do it. I too know many Catholics who would leave the Church if they were forced to evangelize their neighbor.
Personally I’m not much on physical contact–or even standing very close to anyone–outside of my wife and children–but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that it may be something I should work on. Why should I be uncomfortable holding someones hand during a prayer? I am but If I truely love my neighbor as Christ loves me–then why should I be? It seems to me it is because I am selfish–I don’t want to reach out to other and I am content just the way I am and I don’t wish to risk anything whether its being rebuffed, catching a cold or being forced to talk with someone I might not want to talk to–and this shows I am thinking about myself and not about them–and I think that is something I need to work on. I don’t think living in my comfort zone is what living a Christian life is all about.
The Peace of Christ
Mark
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paramedicgirl
Guest
I understand what you are saying, but there are people who are at different levels in their spiritual development. Those who know the value of self-sacrifice clearly are offering their discomfort to God while performing these works you mention. It is those who haven’t reached that level of spiritual development I am referring to.
And yes, the considerate Catholic will not grab at someone’s hand when their head is bowed and their hands are clasped in prayer. But those who do are not only groping you, they are forcing themselves on you. I am thankful that in my church we do not practice hand-holding. There are better ways to express your love for your fellow parishioners.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
The Peace of Christ
Mark
Again I never said that the only way to make contact with someone was by physically touching–I gave an example of an experiece–and I am sorry if my example offend you. We all have our personal fears and phobias–based on our experiences–it doesn’t mean we should embrace them and live our lives in slavery to them. As Christians–whether Catholic or Protestant–we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves–when we are afraid to make contact with them (physically or otherwise)–then we are focused on ourselves–on our needs–and not on the needs of our neighbors. I say this as one who struggles with this. Nothing you say about being unitied in prayer without touching is wrong–its all true–but the holding of hands can be an outward sign of that unity. Whether it should be done at Mass is another question.
The Peace of Christ
Mark
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allhers
Guest
Actually, way back in the day, this is the way the Nuns taught us in Catholic school to do, …“and also with you” (with our palms extended toward the Priest.) They also taught us to lift our hands up, (much like some people do now at the end of the Our Father), when we say…“We lift them up to the Lord.” One other thing, we were definatley taught to have our hands folded in prayer, much like the “praying hands” for the Our Father.
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netmilsmom
Guest
You may struggle with focusing on your needs, but none of this is your call. It is not up to you to call anyone “UnChristian” because he/she does not feel that holding someone’s hand is within their comfort zone or for being afraid. It’s judgemental of you to define someone’s Christianity by that person’s distain for a posture that is intimate in American Society.
Our Lord gave us gifts and He gave us boundries. Do you really think Christ would be so unkind as to belittle someone who had a genuine fear of strangers? Don’t you think that He would think of that person too?
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netmilsmom
Guest
What year was that???
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MarkInOregon
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I thank you and Paramedic girl for engaging in this discussion. I would hope that nothing I said would have offended you but I can see that you are greatly offended and I apologize.
To reiterate–I did not say it was or call anyone unchristian–I said it seemed–not that it was.
As I have maintained all along everyone has the right not to hold hands during the Our Father–indeed that is I believe the prefered posture and I prefer that posture as holding hands at that time doesn’f fit very well, but if my neighbor offers his or her hand I take it in the spirit it is offered–that of brotherly/sisterly love between Catholics.
I don’t think Christ would belittle anyone–and again I apologize if anything I said was belittling as I don’t read what I wrote as such and it was not intended as such–but Christ does call us to change, to conversion and not to remain as we are–it is a continual life long journey–we never arrive and we hope that when we die we die in a state that will allow us to attain heaven. I didn’t scoff at or make fun of anyones genuine fear of strangers–I simply said I didn’t think we should embrace our fears and not try to transcend(sp) them–if you disagree thats fine but I don’t see how saying that is being mean.
In life we all do things we don’t like–whether at work, out of a sense of family obligation or because we know we should–or because our teacher makes us give that presentation and in the grand scheme of life holding the hand of the person next to me at mass–if it is offered–seems like such a little thing to do. Obviously you feel it is a very big thing to do and thats fine I don’t have a complaint with that as for me my fear is that if I refused i might offend or God forbid injure the faith of that person as I don’t know where they are in their faith walk–and maybe that simple rebuff would be enough to make them say–this Christianity is not all it claims to be I’m out of here----extreme yes but possible yes–so I’m not taking the chance on having to answer for that–I’ve got way to much to answer for in the rest of my life–including my unchristian, judgemental and belittling posts on this thread.
Again I am sorry for offending you (it was not my intention) and for my many shortcoming in expressing myself in a kind and charitable manner. Finally as to judging–I would never presume to judge anyone though I would judge a behavior such as fornication by saying the action is wrong–but I would not presume to judge the person. As to holding hands during a prayer–I make no judgement on its correctness or incorrectness–simply expressed an opinion.
The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark
Netmil(name removed by moderator),
I thank you and Paramedic girl for engaging in this discussion. I would hope that nothing I said would have offended you but I can see that you are greatly offended and I apologize.
To reiterate–I did not say it was or call anyone unchristian–I said it seemed–not that it was.
As I have maintained all along everyone has the right not to hold hands during the Our Father–indeed that is I believe the prefered posture and I prefer that posture as holding hands at that time doesn’f fit very well, but if my neighbor offers his or her hand I take it in the spirit it is offered–that of brotherly/sisterly love between Catholics.
I don’t think Christ would belittle anyone–and again I apologize if anything I said was belittling as I don’t read what I wrote as such and it was not intended as such–but Christ does call us to change, to conversion and not to remain as we are–it is a continual life long journey–we never arrive and we hope that when we die we die in a state that will allow us to attain heaven. I didn’t scoff at or make fun of anyones genuine fear of strangers–I simply said I didn’t think we should embrace our fears and not try to transcend(sp) them–if you disagree thats fine but I don’t see how saying that is being mean.
In life we all do things we don’t like–whether at work, out of a sense of family obligation or because we know we should–or because our teacher makes us give that presentation and in the grand scheme of life holding the hand of the person next to me at mass–if it is offered–seems like such a little thing to do. Obviously you feel it is a very big thing to do and thats fine I don’t have a complaint with that as for me my fear is that if I refused i might offend or God forbid injure the faith of that person as I don’t know where they are in their faith walk–and maybe that simple rebuff would be enough to make them say–this Christianity is not all it claims to be I’m out of here----extreme yes but possible yes–so I’m not taking the chance on having to answer for that–I’ve got way to much to answer for in the rest of my life–including my unchristian, judgemental and belittling posts on this thread.
Again I am sorry for offending you (it was not my intention) and for my many shortcoming in expressing myself in a kind and charitable manner. Finally as to judging–I would never presume to judge anyone though I would judge a behavior such as fornication by saying the action is wrong–but I would not presume to judge the person. As to holding hands during a prayer–I make no judgement on its correctness or incorrectness–simply expressed an opinion.
The peace of Christ be with you.
Mark
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allhers
Guest
For anyone that is interested and doesn’t know, the G.I.R.M. is online. (General Instructions for the Roman Missal.)
This is just one of the places where you can read it, some of this page that I have posted below applies to the original posters questions, although, I have not seen anything about the postion of our hands during the “Our Father”, although, as I said earlier, the Nuns taught us back in the 60’s and my parents taught us back in the 50’s to fold our hands in prayer, not hold hands during it. Personally, I see no reason to change that. We didn’t have a sign of peace back then either.
www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml
This is just one of the places where you can read it, some of this page that I have posted below applies to the original posters questions, although, I have not seen anything about the postion of our hands during the “Our Father”, although, as I said earlier, the Nuns taught us back in the 60’s and my parents taught us back in the 50’s to fold our hands in prayer, not hold hands during it. Personally, I see no reason to change that. We didn’t have a sign of peace back then either.
www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml
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netmilsmom
Guest
Are you saying that in the 60’s, nuns taught you to stand in the Orans position?
What Order? Where were you?
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Adonia
Guest
Regarding all this hand holding. My wife and I hold hands and open our palms up with the other. I would not grasp a strangers hand during this time. I don’t see a real problem with this. Lighten up people!
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netmilsmom
Guest
Read through the entire thread and the many others on Handholding and Orans. It’s not whether you hold hands with your wife, it’s about encouraging it in the congregation.
And actually I don’t care if you hold hands, lift your palms, make a daisy chain or do the wave at the Our Father, but please don’t be offended that I think it is inappropriate. While you have the freedom to use any prayer posture you want, I have the right to think you look silly doing it.
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Adonia
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Ok! I must admit that I didn’t read every thread concerning this subject. And I am not offended that you think it’s inappropriate. I respect your opinion on this matter. I don’t wish to encourage it in the congregation, it’s something my wife and I do personally. In reality, the fact is Vatican 2 changed everything! If some people get upset at this practice, we should really be upset that with Vatican 2 even the Priest does not face God anymore. Now that to me is something to get riled up about!
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allhers
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Actually, way back in the day, this is the way the Nuns taught us in Catholic school to do, …“and also with you” (with our palms extended toward the Priest.) They also taught us to lift our hands up, (much like some people do now at the end of the Our Father), when we say…“We lift them up to the Lord.” One other thing, we were definatley taught to have our hands folded in prayer, much like the “praying hands” for the Our Father.
Now where did you get that I said they taught us to pray in the orans position??
You apparently didn’t read what I wrote to begin with. What I said is posted below (and that in response to Striders question.) The Nuns did not teach us to stand in the oran’s position.
Actually, way back in the day, this is the way the Nuns taught us in Catholic school to do, …“and also with you” (with our palms extended toward the Priest.) They also taught us to lift our hands up, (much like some people do now at the end of the Our Father), when we say…“We lift them up to the Lord.” One other thing, we were definatley taught to have our hands folded in prayer, much like the “praying hands” for the Our Father.
Now where did you get that I said they taught us to pray in the orans position??
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netmilsmom
Guest
Okay I must be misunderstanding this. Correct me if I’m wrong, you state that nuns in the 60’s taught you to extend your palms toward the priest, Is that a push motion? are the palms up? If you are stating that the palms are up, that is the orans, so I don’t get it.
Nuns told you to lift your hands in the Praying hands position?
What order of nuns was this?
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VociMike
Guest
I haven’t seen anybody yet mention one of the worst problems with “expected” hand-holding. That is when people step out into the aisles to link up with the people on the other side. Each row undergoes massive lateral shifting to link up across every aisle. And then they undergo massive re-shifting to get back into place afterwards. The whole thing is a real liturgy-stopper.
Same thing happens when there are many empty spots between people in a given pew. Just how far is one expected to stretch?
Same thing happens when there are many empty spots between people in a given pew. Just how far is one expected to stretch?
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Angels_Watchin
Guest
Here’s the teaching of the church on the matter. - In a nutshell - mimiking the priests motions is not ok. Orans and raising hands for the “Lift up your hearts” IS mimiking the priest.
Rome HAS spoken (and this one is NOT the bishop’s decision.)
Please feel free to make tons of copies and distribute after mass (after you speak to the pastor/priest and give him a chance to instruct his flock from the pulpit and in the bulletin.) If he does not instruct/correct his flock - send a letter to the bishop and cc the new nuncio.
LET’S BE CATHOLIC!!! YEAH!!
Angel
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html
ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING
THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED
FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST
Article 6
Liturgical Celebrations
§ 1. Liturgical actions must always clearly manifest the unity of the People of God as a structured communion.(89) Thus there exists a close link between the ordered exercise of liturgical action and the reflection in the liturgy of the Church’s structured nature.
This happens when all participants, with faith and devotion, discharge those roles proper to them.
§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.
In the same way, the use of sacred vestments which are reserved to priests or deacons (stoles, chasubles or dalmatics) at liturgical ceremonies by non-ordained members of the faithful is clearly unlawful.
Every effort must be made to avoid even the appearance of confusion which can spring from anomalous liturgical practices. As the sacred ministers are obliged to wear all of the prescribed liturgical vestments so too the non-ordained faithful may not assume that which is not proper to them.
To avoid any confusion between sacramental liturgical acts presided over by a priest or deacon, and other acts which the non-ordained faithful may lead, it is always necessary to use clearly distinct ceremonials, especially for the latter.
Rome HAS spoken (and this one is NOT the bishop’s decision.)
Please feel free to make tons of copies and distribute after mass (after you speak to the pastor/priest and give him a chance to instruct his flock from the pulpit and in the bulletin.) If he does not instruct/correct his flock - send a letter to the bishop and cc the new nuncio.
LET’S BE CATHOLIC!!! YEAH!!
Angel
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html
ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING
THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED
FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST
Article 6
Liturgical Celebrations
§ 1. Liturgical actions must always clearly manifest the unity of the People of God as a structured communion.(89) Thus there exists a close link between the ordered exercise of liturgical action and the reflection in the liturgy of the Church’s structured nature.
This happens when all participants, with faith and devotion, discharge those roles proper to them.
§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.
In the same way, the use of sacred vestments which are reserved to priests or deacons (stoles, chasubles or dalmatics) at liturgical ceremonies by non-ordained members of the faithful is clearly unlawful.
Every effort must be made to avoid even the appearance of confusion which can spring from anomalous liturgical practices. As the sacred ministers are obliged to wear all of the prescribed liturgical vestments so too the non-ordained faithful may not assume that which is not proper to them.
To avoid any confusion between sacramental liturgical acts presided over by a priest or deacon, and other acts which the non-ordained faithful may lead, it is always necessary to use clearly distinct ceremonials, especially for the latter.
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