Laity Worshiping like Priests?

[netmilsmom]

Rebecca New:

What gets to me is the secret little squeeze people will give when the Our Father is completed.

Oh no, really??
My soon-to-be-Catholic husband swears there is a secret Catholic handshake. I told him he was nuts. Hmmmmmm.

 

[fix]

Rebecca New:

What gets to me is the secret little squeeze people will give when the Our Father is completed.

YES. I have received that as well. Must be we are more Catholic the harder we touch?

 

[Rebecca_New]

Adonia:

Regarding all this hand holding. My wife and I hold hands and open our palms up with the other. I would not grasp a strangers hand during this time. I don’t see a real problem with this. Lighten up people!

A few Sunday’s ago at Mass, I just could not hold hands-I was too involved with the Lord. The woman next to me gave me a dirty look and when it was time for the peace offering she turned her back on me.

Then there was the man who actually blew his nose and expected me to hold his hand afterwards.

My focus is on the Eucharist that binds us together, I truly love my neighbor, but there is a time and a place for everything.

One last thing. How would you feel if you walked into the chapel for Eucharist Adoration and everyone was sitting there holding hands. To me it is the same thing at Mass-to Adore the Eucharist which we are about to receive.

 

[netmilsmom]

NCJohn:

Very, very few people are really going to persist in trying to “force” you into holding their hands with the slightest indication at all that you don’t want to. You really damage your credibility and your charitablility when you imply that people who want to hold hands are mean-spirited, impious people just looking for a way to make you uncomfortable.

Rebecca New:

A few Sunday’s ago at Mass, I just could not hold hands-I was too involved with the Lord. The woman next to me gave me a dirty look and when it was time for the peace offering she turned her back on me.

Then there was the man who actually blew his nose and expected me to hold his hand afterwards.

 

[netmilsmom]

Rebecca New:

My focus is on the Eucharist that binds us together, I truly love my neighbor, but there is a time and a place for everything.

One last thing. How would you feel if you walked into the chapel for Eucharist Adoration and everyone was sitting there holding hands. To me it is the same thing at Mass-to Adore the Eucharist which we are about to receive.

Spot on!

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCJohn
Very, very few people are really going to persist in trying to “force” you into holding their hands with the slightest indication at all that you don’t want to. You really damage your credibility and your charitablility when you imply that people who want to hold hands are mean-spirited, impious people just looking for a way to make you uncomfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca New
A few Sunday’s ago at Mass, I just could not hold hands-I was too involved with the Lord. The woman next to me gave me a dirty look and when it was time for the peace offering she turned her back on me.

Then there was the man who actually blew his nose and expected me to hold his hand afterwards.

Of course it also damages your credibility when you quote me and then cut out the next sentence which says

ncjohn:

I’m sure there are exceptions, just as there are mean-spirited people on the other side who just don’t want to see anything but their way, whether there is a valid reason for that or not–my way or the Highway, hmmmm.

There are rude, inconsiderate, and oblivious people in all walks of life, and on both “sides” of this topic. That doesn’t make them the rule or give someone a reason to make judgments about the devotion or piety of all.

I’ll stand by my statement as written and will continue to refrain from condemning people for their personal preferences on this.

Peace,

 

[Dr.Bombay]

ncjohn:

You know I have not said this here, nor have I ever said any such thing. My contiinual call has been for ALL to be charitable of each other’s preferences. At all times and in all places.

Again, there are many charitable ways to accomplish this. Very, very few people are really going to persist in trying to “force” you into holding their hands with the slightest indication at all that you don’t want to. You really damage your credibility and your charitablility when you imply that people who want to hold hands are mean-spirited, impious people just looking for a way to make you uncomfortable. I’m sure there are exceptions, just as there are mean-spirited people on the other side who just don’t want to see anything but their way, whether there is a valid reason for that or not–my way or the Highway, hmmmm.
This gets really old; the constant throwing out of ridiculous scenarios, which we all know would be put to a stop immediately, and trying to compare them to something that has been in use for at least 30 years without the Church saying to stop.
If this is really wrong, the Church will get to it as you say. I quite frankly doubt it, given that they have gone this long without finding a problem with it, but if they condemn it tomorrow I will stop, and without complaining about it.

I found a quote from Dr. Bombay in another thread that seems very applicable here: “Cardinal Newman also warned that to reverse the course of an existing development is not a development but a corruption.” If there’s a valid reason to reverse it, I’m sure the Church will in time. If it hasn’t been reversed, maybe there is a valid reason why not. In the meantime, I will just continue to call on charity from all and a lack of judgment about each other’s motives and piety.

Now, John. This handsy stuff is an innovation. Not a development. It was imposed upon us by a bunch of do-gooder liturgists influenced by Pentecostals and such like. It didn’t just spontaneously begin. The liturgists attend their congresses and synods and whatever else, then disperse to their various parishes full of a “spirit” of some type, eager to foist their latest scheme on unsuspecting parishoners. And, if I may quote myself since you made bold to quote me, we all know the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist. You can negotiate with a terrorist.

Thankfully, this nonsense has only been around my diocese about ten years or so. And it will soon be gone, little noted nor long remembered. :yup:

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

Of course it also damages your credibility when you quote me and then cut out the next sentence which says
There are rude, inconsiderate, and oblivious people in all walks of life, and on both “sides” of this topic. That doesn’t make them the rule or give someone a reason to make judgments about the devotion or piety of all.

I’ll stand by my statement as written and will continue to refrain from condemning people for their personal preferences on this.

Peace,

First, how many different references have to be pointed out to you before you begin to believe it. You have stated in other threads that you doubt these stories. How do you think that it makes the person writing that feel? How charitable you are.

Second, as with the above statement, when one of us do not go along with your agenda you get personal. (i.e my Credibility is in doubt) Well, you certainly are letting your Christianity show in this thread.

How often does one have to say that those of us who do not want a mass with innovations are not accomodated? You don’t care and you have made it abundantly clear. It’s up to us to adjust. It’s up to us to find the way to make you comfortable even if it means that we give up our comfort zone. When was the last time that you gave sympathy to those that do not like this innovation the way you want us to? Maybe you should go back and read post 71 and see how Charitable you were there.

And you say WE are unChristian. Right.

I pray that every mind will be focused on Our Lord this Christmas and not each other. It’s not about the community. The community was not born to die for our sins.

 

[Kikero]

Wow. You know I never thought of the orans as mimicry and I sure would like to see something authoritative dealing with that specificly. Now that I think about it there is something about the orans that has always made me “uncomfortable.” The whole “back at ya” part I actually think is ok. That just seems quite natural but the rest of it, the long Orans during the Our Father and OH, OH Oh and most especially this whole raising hands above the head like they are two antenna just soaking up those spiritual waves and the hand holding…arrg.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Second, as with the above statement, when one of us do not go along with your agenda you get personal. (i.e my Credibility is in doubt) Well, you certainly are letting your Christianity show in this thread.

First off, the only “agenda” I have, or have ever had here, is to get people to be accomodating and charitable to each other, exactly as you claim to be asking for. Truth be told though, I am seriously beginning to doubt that that is what you truly seek, given the repeated attacks on anyone who thinks that holding hands is ok. As to getting personal, the only way I got personal was in addressing that you misquoted me by leaving off the half of my statement which dealt specifically with what you were saying.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

How often does one have to say that those of us who do not want a mass with innovations are not accomodated? You don’t care and you have made it abundantly clear. It’s up to us to adjust. It’s up to us to find the way to make you comfortable even if it means that we give up our comfort zone. When was the last time that you gave sympathy to those that do not like this innovation the way you want us to? Maybe you should go back and read post 71 and see how Charitable you were there.

If you can truly say that I have EVER not taken a position that all should be charitable and that nobody should be forcing their preference on someone else I will quit posting at this forum altogether. Your claim that I have done otherwise, and worse yet that I don’t care, is incredibly insulting as the only reason I post here at all is because I do care that BOTH views be able to be accomodated in peace.

Given that the practice does legitmately exist and we all have to deal with that, I have suggested (and practice myself) multiple ways for people who do not want to participate to refrain from doing so without denying the right of those who do wish to participate. I have shown sympathy for you and all who do not wish to participate on many occasions and in many ways, and will continue to do so. I do not consider your position “wrong” in any way as I don’'t consider this a “right vs wrong” issue, just one of preference. I will take issue however with anyone who does try to make it seem to be “wrong” from either viewpoint and start getting judgemental about those who feel differently than them.

Finally, no, I do NOT believe that it is widespread that the majority of people are trying to push themselves on others. I would suggest that if you truly have found someplace where that is the case that there is a far more basic issue at the core: that somehow the basic fundamental message of Christian charity is not being preached in a way that is getting through. If that is the case, then holding hands is the least of your problems.

You have stated on numerous occasions that all you want is to be able to have separate Masses where the different views could be accomodated. I still am not sure if just having people charitably not push this on others would be acceptable to you. I have agreed with you on the first, although I believe it is not practical since we all want to be able to attend whichever Mass works best for us and there will always be “crossover.”

I have continually suggested things such as asking the priest to remind people to act charitably. If that doesn’t or won’t happen–again given that the practice does legitimately exist–I have suggested alternative ways to insulate yourself against it if you don’t want to participate.

Given that at least for the present it exists, what other suggestions would you have? How else would you have me promote charity that I have missed? I’m not saying this sarcastically in any way as I truly want to do everything I can to try to make you comfortable without denying those who want to hold hands. For any belief you might have to the contrary, I really do care and always have or I wouldn’t be wasting my time here. I care deeply also about the Church and feel personally wounded when I see her members sniping at each other and getting judgmental about each other’s devotion and piety over such petty stuff rather than focusing on our common devotion to God.

We have so many important things to do in helping to bring the Kingdom to a world that so desperately needs it.

Peace,

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

You have stated on numerous occasions that all you want is to be able to have separate Masses where the different views could be accomodated. I still am not sure if just having people charitably not push this on others would be acceptable to you. I have agreed with you on the first, although I believe it is not practical since we all want to be able to attend whichever Mass works best for us and there will always be “crossover.”

I have continually suggested things such as asking the priest to remind people to act charitably. If that doesn’t or won’t happen–again given that the practice does legitimately exist–I have suggested alternative ways to insulate yourself against it if you don’t want to participate.

Why should anyone have to Insulate against innovation in the liturgy? And do you see what you are saying here…

although I believe it is not practical since we all want to be able to attend whichever Mass works best for us and there will always be “crossover.”

That there is no way that you would be willing to have one mass without innovation because you might need to go to that mass. We did it at my home parish, 9am was without and 10:30 was with innovation. It worked and made everyone happy. When I had to attend the innovative mass, I knew that it was an exception in my life, not the rule. Right now, you seem to want to make it the rule.

Please understand that where I am (and you know my story) there are very few opportunities to “avoid” the congregation that uses this innovation. Those who are unhappy with a community approach to our mass have watch innovation after innovation become a norm. Now we have validation that we deserve OUR way of worshiping.

While holding hands may have been a norm in your parish for many years, this has not been the case in most parishes. People do not know that it is an innovation and go along. It’s easy for you without young children to say, 'Just don’t do it". My children are being influenced in a way that has not been sanctioned by the Vatican. Silence is not sanctioning.
Yes, if I were single or my children were grown, this could all be easy. You see the posts and see the opinions. To have to unteach my children what they are seeing in church, should not be. We also should have the option to worship the way that we want. Not to have to go against what the crowd is doing all the time. When they watch EWTN, they should have the option to attend a mass like that. Not adapt your liturgy.

No one is taking away your style of worship, you know that John. No one is going to tell a family or good friends to stop holding hands. Until the Vatican sanctions this, I will continue to state on this forum. Nothing is to be added to the liturgy, Orans or Handholding are not stated in the GIRM nor any other Vatican document for the laity.
Maybe it’s just that I have lived the belittling, the ticking, the patronizing smiles at the way that I worship, the EWTN type worship. I see others hunger for it and they are turned away. Turn the tables and see where we stand. You would get passionate as well.

I agreed to state in every one of these threads that a person should check with his/her Bishop. I feel you should not disregard the amount of posts regarding people who are pushing their way of worshiping and to not state that lying prostrate is ridiculous. We have people who DO at Adoration. It may be ridiculous in your way of thinking, but it also is a proper prayer posture.

Your heart IS in the right place but I do feel that the solution to this is not to disregard someone else’s comfort level. We get that all the time. I know it is hard to be sympathetic but empathy is warranted.

And as I said many a time, I would fight for your way of worshiping if it were to be taken away. Although I do not see the Vatican saying no hand holding in Mass, so it’s not quite the same as impossing this style of worship into the liturgy. And that’s what I think you are missing, it’s put in as part of the Liturgy, not spontaneously by the congregation.

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

That there is no way that you would be willing to have one mass without innovation because you might need to go to that mass. We did it at my home parish, 9am was without and 10:30 was with innovation. It worked and made everyone happy. When I had to attend the innovative mass, I knew that it was an exception in my life, not the rule. Right now, you seem to want to make it the rule.

Again, I have agreed with you on this on numerous occasions and I still do. My expression of doubt as to it working on a general basis is that you can’t stop people coming from the outside who are going to want to do what they are used to. Our parish is very seasonal, with a small core group in the winter and a huge visitor population in the summer. We only have one Saturday and one Sunday Mass. I guess theoretically you could designate one as “no hand holding” but that isn’t going to stop people from doing it if they want to. I am in full, 100% support of the theory; just doubtful about it being workable in most places except for large urban areas with lots of parishes and lots of priests.

Maybe it’s just that I have lived the belittling, the ticking, the patronizing smiles at the way that I worship, the EWTN type worship. I see others hunger for it and they are turned away. Turn the tables and see where we stand. You would get passionate as well.

I truly do understand that and have sympathized with you on that, as I see it as a lack of charity that should not be present in our churches. To be fair, I have seen people in my own parish look with disdain and make nasty comments about those of us who hold hands, so the lack of charity is not exclusive to one side.

I agreed to state in every one of these threads that a person should check with his/her Bishop. I feel you should not disregard the amount of posts regarding people who are pushing their way of worshiping and to not state that lying prostrate is ridiculous. We have people who DO at Adoration. It may be ridiculous in your way of thinking, but it also is a proper prayer posture.

There is a great deal of difference between being prostrate at Adoration and doing so at the Our Father, which would never happen on any sustained basis, especially given the logistical problem. Quite frankly there have been times during my prayer when I have felt like throwing myself on the ground before God, so I can certainly understand someone being moved to do so. While I don’t agree with it at Adoration, I would certainly not look down on anyone who did it, any more than those who genuflect on both knees even though it has been specifically changed to be just one. I just refuse to be bothered by these kinds of things.

Your heart IS in the right place but I do feel that the solution to this is not to disregard someone else’s comfort level. We get that all the time. I know it is hard to be sympathetic but empathy is warranted.

Thank you and I couldn’t agree with you more. My only question is what more we can do to accomplish that, which has been my primary goal.

And as I said many a time, I would fight for your way of worshiping if it were to be taken away. Although I do not see the Vatican saying no hand holding in Mass, so it’s not quite the same as impossing this style of worship into the liturgy. And that’s what I think you are missing, it’s put in as part of the Liturgy, not spontaneously by the congregation.

Again, I have continually suggested that priests should be announcing that charity in not imposing on others should be observed. There is a huge difference between allowing and commanding, and neither priests nor bishops as far as I know have the authority to command it here, although they may have the ability to encourage or discourage. And I certainly agree, though you didn’t state it here, that it should NOT be liturgical directors or anyone other than the priest making those decisions.

Peace to you sister and a blessed Christmas!

 

[fix]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Why should anyone have to Insulate against innovation in the liturgy?

To me this is the central issue in all these threads and their never ending variations. If Rome has not asked us to do something, why must any of us be imposed upon to do it. I try not to impose myself on anothers and in all charity it seems reasonable for others to follow suit.

All the hand gesturing and holding is a very recent occurrence in the latin rite here in America. The problem with introducing these actions is that Rome has not asked us to do it. If some want to do it that would be almost acceptable, yet it rarely stops there and it becomes a type of “norm” and others have it foisted on them.

That is one reason why so many get so agitated over every single irregularity, or whatever you choose to call these issues.

 

[netmilsmom]

ncjohn:

Peace to you sister and a blessed Christmas!

God Bless you John. We actually do fight the good fight together. You call me if anyone wants to do away with your liturgy. I’ll have your back. I have to take Mother Angelica’s lead. Fight until it comes down from the Vatican, then humbly obey. (she did that with Altar Girls)

And BTW, I would hold your hand. If I attended a mass at your church, You could even hold my five year old’s hand! That is a big one, she’s very shy. I’d even make sure she washed them before she got to you.

Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year!

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Photini
do I have to join in? Thus far, I’ve just kept my hands quietly folded on the pew during Mass, as I was taught to do as a child. Is this posture still acceptable???

No. You do not have to join in.
Quietly folded hands is absolutely acceptable.

 

[thistle]

catsrus:

No. You do not have to join in.
Quietly folded hands is absolutely acceptable.

I’m curious about what you mean by folded hands. Fingers intertwined would be clasped hands and you could also have one hand hold the other.
What are folded hands?

 

[netmilsmom]

thistle:

I’m curious about what you mean by folded hands. Fingers intertwined would be clasped hands and you could also have one hand hold the other.
What are folded hands?

Catholics in America had called the posture of one’s right palm touching one’s left palm, folded hands.
One’s fingers pointed to Heaven or intertwined, both are considered folded.

 

[Angels_Watchin]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Here is what it says on the Diocese of Manilla website…

There’s is no prohibition on the holding of hands during the singing of the Our Father during the Mass. This is the clarification being made by Fr. Anscar Chupungco, OSB, executive secretary of the Commission on Liturgy of the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines.

Fr. Chupungco said that there has been no directive from the bishops that bans this practice among priests and laypeople during the celebration of the Mass. The statement coming out of the 20 th National Meeting of Diocesan Directors of Liturgy made no mention of such prohibition. While it suggested that certain “indecorous movements” must be "eliminated” these did not refer to “holding hands” during the singing of the “Our Father.”

Fr. Chupungco issued the clarification on behalf of Bishop Romulo Valles, chairman of the Episcopal Commission on Liturgy.#

**Pls. refer: Fr. Anscar Chupungco OSB, 8423511 **​

Peachy E. Yamsuan/ 09178355363

This is not applied to the American Diocese. Check with them before doing this innovation.

Thanks for the info, but…

the article doesn’t mention any quote from a document of the church. In addition, any documents of a local bishop’s conference MUST BE VALIDATED AND AUTHORIZED BY ROME IN ORDER TO BE OFFICIAL.

Let me tell you a little story about “Directors of Liturgy” - we had one in our diocese (Diocese of Orange) who was an active homosexual living with his male partner WHILE WORKING IN THE CHANCERY OFFICE AS 1. Director of Liturgy of the Diocese, 2. Director of RCIA 3. Director of Catechumenates, and a few other departments for a number of YEARS. These are SPECIFICALLY FORMATION AND EDUCATIONAL POSITIONS - nothing behind the scenes for THIS active homosexual.

Finally after getting his location at night on video tape, (the house he shares with his partner and the location of his business address for the liturgical design company he owns that is STILL BEING USED BY THE PASTORS IN THE DIOCESE OF ORANGE! (August 2005) WITH FULL AUTHORITY OF BISHOP TOD BROWN (the letters of authorization came directly from the bishops secretary with bishop’s approval stated in the letter) he resigned. But Bishop Tod Brown and C. Mahony had known about him and his situation during the entire time he was at the chancery office. It has been written about in Orange County papers for years before the resignation. See ("The Roots of the Catholic’s Scandal by Steven Greenhut) ocregister.com/commentary/columns/greenhut/2002/greenhut20020609.shtml

How many other “Directors”/Pastors/Bishops are not in union with the church? Dozens, hundreds, thousands?

Trust in the documents of the church. The Church of Rome. Not a comment by a priest, pastor, Director of Liturgy or even a bishop.

(post # 60 above quotes the documents of the church and appears very clear regarding this issue, IMO)

God help us,
Angel

 

[netmilsmom]

Angels Watchin:

Thanks for the info, but…

the article doesn’t mention any quote from a document of the church. In addition, any documents of a local bishop’s conference MUST BE VALIDATED AND AUTHORIZED BY ROME IN ORDER TO BE OFFICIAL.

try here…

rcam.org/news/2005/no_ban_on_our_father_singing_holding_hands.htmhttp://www.rcam.org/news/2005/no_ban_on_our_father_singing_holding_hands.htm

There is no official documentation from the Vatican on holding hands for the Our Father. Therefore one must listen to one’s Bishop. Period.
It is not for you to judge whether or not a Bishop is fit nor his staff, it is the Vatican’s call and until they bring the hammer down, we must show humility and obey.

And trust me, I’m no fan of the Handholding thing. If my Bishop stated that I must, I would.

 

[John_Lilburne]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

There is no official documentation from the Vatican on holding hands for the Our Father. Therefore one must listen to one’s Bishop. Period.
It is not for you to judge whether or not a Bishop is fit nor his staff, it is the Vatican’s call and until they bring the hammer down, we must show humility and obey.

And trust me, I’m no fan of the Handholding thing. If my Bishop stated that I must, I would.

“Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.”
(Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the Collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priests, 15 August 1997, Article 6, S 2).

From the Roman Missal:
“The priest sets down the chalice and paten and with hands joined sings or says one of the following: … Let us pray for the coming of the kingdom as Jesus taught us.
He extends his hands and he continues, with the people: Our Father …
With hands extended, the priest continues alone: Deliver us, …
He joins his hands.
DOXOLOGY
The people end the prayer with the acclamation: For the kingdom …
Then the priest, with hands extended, says aloud: Lord Jesus …
He joins his hands. where you live for ever and ever.”.
(The Sacramentary, Catholic Book Publishing Co, New York, 1985, pages 561-562).

A bishop does not have the authority to change the postures of the people. The 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) makes this clear in n. 387 and 390. (See http:www.romanrite.com/girm.html ). As n. 390 explains, decisions on “The gestures and posture of the faithful” require a decision by the Conference of Bishops and the recognito of the Apostolic See.