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Cinette
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*You do not believe in the Immaculate Conception???:bigyikes:
I am so sorry I posted on this thread - should have kept this to myself!*
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I am so sorry I posted on this thread - should have kept this to myself!*
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wynnejj
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The story of the Protoevangelium of James is deeply disturbing to the trust in the truth of Catholic Church. If you accept the idea that Joseph (who may or may not have been a widower) marries Mary, consecrated to God as a perpetual temple virgin, in a guardianship role to protect Mary’s perpetual vow of virginity — well, that is like a priest marrying a nun. If the RCC’s “first family” (so to speak) can’t get it right … well, why do we trust in the truth of the RCC as inerrant.
My point in this example is not to hijack this thread down this avenue, but to say that it illustrates how such questions of historical accuracy versus legend leads one down an avenue of thought that questions whether Christianity just makes up stories as it goes along.
My point in this example is not to hijack this thread down this avenue, but to say that it illustrates how such questions of historical accuracy versus legend leads one down an avenue of thought that questions whether Christianity just makes up stories as it goes along.
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Cinette
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You are Catholic?
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Rich_Olszewski
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irishpatrick
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Anyone who truly understands what the Church holds, will never leave the Church. Ignorance is what drives most people to leave. Simple.
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wynnejj
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Indeed, Mary was indeed special due to her immaculate conception … born without original sin. However, that is oral tradition, not scriptural. Oral tradition is more or less the ongoing discovery of spiritual truths as gathered from the experiences of the saints whose veracity is given the imprimatur of God the Father by the miracles that he performs through them to manifest to us that this saint has got it right. However, apocrypha pushed by Catholics without such an imprimatur leads to errant beliefs that are inconsistent with the moral teachings of the church. Consequently, oral tradition mixed with apocrypha gives the net effect of distrust in oral tradition and leads to reliance on sola scriptura.
Our world needs more and more saints with more and more miracles that attest to oral tradition that is inerrant. Our high percentage of lapsed Catholics attests to a period in time that has a crisis of insufficient saints.
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Rich_Olszewski
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Sorry, but that IMO is not “simple,” but a simplistic reply. Your triumphalism flies in the face of the honest reasons, not excuses, that some people have for leaving the Church. But, do believe that if you will.
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Elizabeth502
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Except that it was you who focused on it; so apparently it is very “important” to you. You drew a strained relationship between outreach and attire, which makes it appear that you associate casual clothing with superior charity (and/or more pure intentions); more formal clothing with inferior charity (or more suspect, less pure intentions). They are not related. There is no reason to bring up clothing, and you brought it up – no one else.
…in which case there is no purpose in interjecting the topic artificially, because it is “regardless” – without regard.
But I want to loop back to the recent discussion on fellowship, and assumptions made in earlier posts about who should welcome whom (because it was introduced as a supposed “reason” for leaving the Church. Folks, it’s our individual responsibility to be welcoming individuals, or approachable individuals – people to whom others are drawn. Be very careful (aside from any positive or negative uncharitable association with clothing) about attaching value to the reluctance of strangers to extend themselves to other strangers.
I’ve attended Mass and sung in Mass choirs at dozens of locations; in general, most people are not naturally extroverted when it comes to complete strangers in a “crowd” at a formal event (Mass, funeral, wedding, even civic formal event). Most people keep to themselves, particularly when they do not know anyone else. This is particularly true among certain age groups (the very young, the very old). It’s immature to “demand,” even internally, that others extend themselves to us. If you are/we are so interested in “fellowship,” walk over to someone else (either at the exchange of peace, or more appropriately, after Mass) and introduce yourself or say Hello.
And be very careful of interpreting a serious look as a “glare,” or even as disapproving. Many people are not even comfortable at the exchange of peace, despite it being a structured moment, and certainly would not leave their seat, let alone pew, to extend themselves. It’s not an indication that they lack charity, warmth, or are lazy. It can be social habit, personality, fear, culture, or all of that. I recently sung at a parish dominated by those from a certain cultural group which is conservative and non-expressive. To those of us in the choir they “looked” unhappy – even “miserable,” regardless of any joyous words that were being sung. In their culture, it is bad form to be expressive at a solemn event, and just as bad form to extend particular gestures of “friendship” to complete strangers, even during an invited moment, such as the exchange of peace.
So now I sing at a different parish, and even despite a very different cultural configuration there, I find that still, most people do not show on their faces or in their body language and gestures how they really feel, and how they are responding to whatever is going on at Mass – be it the exchange of peace, the words in a hymn, the homily, etc. What I have learned is to stop assuming anything from people’s outward behavior, and to start taking the lead if I want to “connect” with people in a giving/receiving way. You need to give if you want to receive. That’s the way the world works.
So I don’t need to worry about someone’s private opinion of me or of others, as supposedly indicated by their lack of outreach. All I need to do is to walk over to that other person (in my pew, out of my pew at Masses in which I am not singing or taking a leadership role) and be the person to greet an apparent introvert warmly. I don’t deserve fellowship if I can’t give it first. I have never experienced that when I am the one to extend myself by touching someone gently on the shoulder, or smiling warmly, they bristle or reject me. They are always relieved and touched by a gesture. That is true whether this is my first time inside that church or my 2028th time.
And as to the serious and supposedly unresponsive looks on faces when others in the chuch are animated, I have learned from comments after Mass that some of the people who look the most serious and reserved are the ones most appreciative and internally responsive to emotively sung music (for example), and to a well-prepared & powerfully delivered homily. It’s very unreasonable to demand that people show outwardly, in public, in front of strangers, what they are feeling inwardly – toward others, toward the priest, toward the music at liturgy, etc. It’s a structured, formal event; it’s not a party. Please remember that when you lament the supposed lack of “fellowship.” There’s not much opportunity for fellowship during Mass.
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irishpatrick
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It is a simplistic situation. The Church is either the one true Church Christ began, or it is not. The Church either holds the true saving Sacraments, or it does not. The Church either dispenses the saving Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, or it does not. The Church either has the Divinely given power/authority to forgive our sins, or it does not. The list goes on, yet in the end, people who leave the Church, leave out of ignorance, because no rational person would leave those gifts if they actually knew the Church held them–so, people leave because they do not know what they are doing, they are ignorant of the truth. Sadly.Sorry, but that IMO is not “simple,” but a simplistic reply. Your triumphalism flies in the face of the honest reasons, not excuses, that some people have for leaving the Church. But, do believe that if you will.
People make a simple situation complex.
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wynnejj
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That is a question that every serious discerning Catholic should ask themselves every day.You are Catholic?
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Rich_Olszewski
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Go tell that to the poster who was raped by a priest. How ignorant was she? Or those who were the victims of paederast priests?
You are speaking on a theological plane, many people, however, don’t. Your pious explanation won’t do for people hurt by the institutional Church IMO. They had reasons to leave, not excuses.
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irishpatrick
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The vast majority do not leave because of personal injury. I do suspect the Lord has mercy for those who leave under such trying stiuations. The majority, however, do not leave the Church under such dreadful circumstances.Go tell that to the poster who was raped by a priest. How ignorant was she? Or those who were the victims of paederast priests?
You are speaking on a theological plane, many people, however, don’t. Your pious explanation won’t do for people hurt by the institutional Church IMO.
Examples that shine a light on the less than one-percent, will never help anything when it comes to general truths. We are humans, there are always going to be exceptions since we are a fallen race.
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Scott_Lafrance
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I tried. The bank does not consider oompah to be legal tender.Sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. There’s a line that cannot be crossed when folks are at Mass. It’s called respect. I’m no friend of Obama, but you can be sure that even for that man, I’d wear a suit if he invited me to a meeting.
Obama doesn’t count? Okay. If I were to have a meeting with Timothy Cardinal Dolan, I’d not show up in cut-offs, a wifebeater, and shower clogs.
I think that “God loves me no matter how I dress” is nothing but oompah, and you can take that to the bank.
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Cinette
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*You are absolutely correct. People leave out of poor formation (ignorance). But we should not be harsh and critical - we should encourage the study of Apologetics so that Catholics should come to know their Faith in order to be able to defend it.
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Rich_Olszewski
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There are reasons to leave, and excuses, too. I respect the former, but not the latter.
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irishpatrick
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I agree.
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Rich_Olszewski
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True!! But I meant the notion of taking something to the bank, not the specific item.I tried. The bank does not consider oompah to be legal tender.
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Cinette
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*The bible is Written Tradition which emanated from Oral Tradition. There are other books which speak of the time of Jesus which are not part of the Canon. This does not make them wrong. How do we know of St Anne and St Joaquim? They are not mentioned in the bible. How do know all that Oral Tradition taught? I am sure that it is not all contained in the Bible.
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irishpatrick
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I understand why some feel compelled to leave after experiencing such horrors, emotional pain is a terrible thing to overcome. Yet, other than something like that, I can see no rational reason to leave the Church, other than ignorance of the truth.
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irishpatrick
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This is where the Magisterium comes into play.*The bible is Written Tradition which emanated from Oral Tradition. There are other books which speak of the time of Jesus which are not part of the Canon. This does not make them wrong. How do we know of St Anne and St Joaquim? They are not mentioned in the bible. How do know all that Oral Tradition taught? I am sure that it is not all contained in the Bible.
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