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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Again, your failure to see such rational reasons doesn’t mean that there are no such good and rational reasons.
I am convinced that there are, but we obviously have different opinions as to that.
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I am convinced that there are, but we obviously have different opinions as to that.
I
iamrefreshed
Guest
Well, it’s not often this happens but I agree with you 100%.Sorry, but that doesn’t fly with me. There’s a line that cannot be crossed when folks are at Mass. It’s called respect. I’m no friend of Obama, but you can be sure that even for that man, I’d wear a suit if he invited me to a meeting.
Obama doesn’t count? Okay. If I were to have a meeting with Timothy Cardinal Dolan, I’d not show up in cut-offs, a wifebeater, and shower clogs.
I think that “God loves me no matter how I dress” is nothing but oompah, and you can take that to the bank.
B
Bible_is_truth
Guest
Hi as a Non Conformist Christian i.e I will not be labelled a specific Faith as for me there is Only one God and Jesus ,the way the truth ,the life,
People must read and understand the word of God,many Faiths I have come across are either Cults or Man’s Dictatorship. I am at present looking into the Catholic Faith to learn for myself ,I have many views now, In my Bible it says that no-one is without Sin ,this means Mary to.
Blessings to you.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
IMO, there are no rational reasons, yet as you have accurately pointed out, there are some emotional reasons.Again, your failure to see such rational reasons doesn’t mean that there are no such good and rational reasons.
I am convinced that there are, but we obviously have different opinions as to that.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
So there we stand. You believe that there are no rational reasons, just a few emotional ones. I believe that there are both rational reasons and emotional reasons to leave the Catholic Church.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Yes, that is where we stand. If one pulls emotion out, there is no rational reason to leave the Church, other than simple ignorance of the truth.So there we stand. You believe that there are no rational reasons, just a few emotional ones. I believe that there are both rational reasons and emotional reasons to leave the Catholic Church.
The bottom lines is simple: if there is eternal life, and if eternal life is in the form of the Biblically described Heaven, then every rational person would want to receive the gift of eternity in Heaven. The entire purpose of Jesus coming to earth, dying for us, and establishing His Church (the Roman Catholic Church), is to offer the gift of eternal life to everyone who learns the truth, and comes to accept that same truth. Anyone who learns the actual truth, and yet walks away from that truth, is not being rational–they might be reacting to an emotional harm they received while in the Church, yet leaving the one conduit Christ setup to save souls, is NOT rational.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I don’t doubt that there are people with subjectively good reasons for leaving the Church; particularly those who never really learned anything about the Church to begin with. Easy to reject something if you don’t know what it is.
Some, for sure, have been abused in a serious way…those afflicted by sexual predators in the Church. Not many of those, but I do get it.
Just from my own personal knowledge of people who have left, it always seems to come down to one of two things. First terrible catechesis combined with an emotionally-based appeal by some church that trades on emotionally-based appeals. Second, and, at least in my experience, far more prevalent, is some sexually-based thing; most often the guy who leaves his wife of 20 years for a newer model. They ALWAYS have some story about how some priest treated them rudely or some nun smacked them as children or “no fellowship/warmth/whatever”. But the trade-in is the real deal.
Some, for sure, have been abused in a serious way…those afflicted by sexual predators in the Church. Not many of those, but I do get it.
Just from my own personal knowledge of people who have left, it always seems to come down to one of two things. First terrible catechesis combined with an emotionally-based appeal by some church that trades on emotionally-based appeals. Second, and, at least in my experience, far more prevalent, is some sexually-based thing; most often the guy who leaves his wife of 20 years for a newer model. They ALWAYS have some story about how some priest treated them rudely or some nun smacked them as children or “no fellowship/warmth/whatever”. But the trade-in is the real deal.
C
Cinette
Guest
B
Bible_is_truth
Guest
Hi
I’m looking into the origins of the Catholic Beliefs how many ideas came about,this is one of my studies at present ,having looked into others.
I will say as a non conformist Christian ,so far I am dismayed at my findings,I have looked into popes from the past ,and their beliefs,and what they introduced into the doctrine up to present day.I still am yet to find scripture backing for these ideas,Jesus for me is the high priest after Melchizedek as in Hebrews writes.Christ’s Death on the cross and the torn curtain signifies now that all can go to God through Jesus Final sacrifice on the cross,there is now no need for more sacrifices,He paid the price of my Sins as I repented to him ,yes I live in sin ,yes I pray to him for my forgiveness, Yes we all shall be finally cleansed when Jesus comes again. I only go into Churches that strictly keep to the word of God .
I understand many Faiths ,I at present am still discovering the Catholic.
I Respect all Faiths ,it doe’s not mean I follow them.
Blessings to you.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Again, your interpretation. I’ll not argue this with you as I know very intelligent former Catholics who were fully knowledgeable about the Catholic faith, yet who left it. I respect your opinion and those who support it; I respect it of those friends of mine who left the faith - BTW, almost never for another religion.
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Bible_is_truth
Guest
Excuse me?*Keep reading and try praying.
I do not know you and vice versa,
There are many things to make all of us think,I will not enter upsets or point fingers.
Prayer is a main part of any Faith,but to whom?
Only one Living God for me
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
There’s the story of a Catholic Frenchman, one of that very rational race, who told an American friend, also a Catholic, “I’ve lost my faith.” The American was surprised and asked, “are you going to another religion?” The Frenchman glared at his American friend and said, “I told you that I lost my faith, NOT my mind.” 
I
irishpatrick
Guest
Blessings to you.
First, all teachings held by the Church will NOT be found in Scripture, nor does Jesus or the Bible say that it will.
Second, there are three legs of the authentic Christian stool: (1) Scripture, OT and NT; (2) Sacred Tradition; (3) The Magisterium.
One will be disappointed if they think Scripture is akin to being a step-by-step dogma and doctrine text book. It is more akin to being a historic telling of salvation history.
For example, Mary’s assumption into Heaven is not stated directly in Scripture, yet Sacred Tradtion and the Magisterium affirms the truth of her assumption.
Finally, some Popes did make some major mistakes, yet they were never mistakes regarding formal teachings of the faith or morals. For example, look into Pope Sixtus V–an interesting case in which he personally re-wrote the Bible (and he made many errors during his re-write), and before he could formally promulgate the version, he died.
B
Bible_is_truth
Guest
Pardon me ,*Keep reading and try praying.
I did not sign off, before,
Blessings to you,
C
Cinette
Guest
*The Church is both divine and human and to leave because of abuse is sad because it is precisely in the Church that one can find consolation and truth. Some people are fragile and cannot cope while others will boldly handle the situation. Sexual abuse is everywhere - schools, scouts, etc etc
There was a time when one would go to the Doctor and would be given prescriptions and perhaps an injection and no explanation…
Today this does not happen. Information is so readily available through the Internet and other sources that Doctors realise that an explanation is necessary. Similarly, the same occurs if a priest says or does something wrong. We question. We need to learn about our Faith and we do and question. I know my priest has been challenged more than once by me. This will not make me leave the Church. I find the Church fantastic - interesting, exciting, amazing and so necessary for my happiness and, of course, salvation.
There was a time when one would go to the Doctor and would be given prescriptions and perhaps an injection and no explanation…
Today this does not happen. Information is so readily available through the Internet and other sources that Doctors realise that an explanation is necessary. Similarly, the same occurs if a priest says or does something wrong. We question. We need to learn about our Faith and we do and question. I know my priest has been challenged more than once by me. This will not make me leave the Church. I find the Church fantastic - interesting, exciting, amazing and so necessary for my happiness and, of course, salvation.
B
Bible_is_truth
Guest
Thank you kindly for that,Blessings to you.
First, all teachings held by the Church will NOT be found in Scripture, nor does Jesus or the Bible say that it will.
Second, there are three legs of the authentic Christian stool: (1) Scripture, OT and NT; (2) Sacred Tradition; (3) The Magisterium.
One will be disappointed if they think Scripture is akin to being a step-by-step dogma and doctrine text book. It is more akin to being a historic telling of salvation history.
For example, Mary’s assumption into Heaven is not stated directly in Scripture, yet Sacred Tradtion and the Magisterium affirms the truth of her assumption.
Finally, some Popes did make some major mistakes, yet they were never mistakes regarding formal teachings of the faith or morals. For example, look into Pope Sixtus V–an interesting case in which he personally re-wrote the Bible (and he made many errors during his re-write), and before he could formally promulgate the version, he died.
Blessings to you
I
irishpatrick
Guest
Thank you.
I suspect that the people you know who left the faith, did so for emotional reasons, or they did so because they just did not believe the truth–despite the abudant evidence, which is, imo, irrational.
Thanks again.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
C
Cinette
Guest
*Don’t forget that it is difficult to be a faithful Catholic - it is very challenging and often uncomfortable too.
I could not bear to leave the Church - where would I go? The Church has the Word of Eternal life! It is the Church Christ built!
*
W
wynnejj
Guest
Am I a Catholic? Good question! Why am I a Catholic? Better question.
This is a letter I wrote to a nephew (high math aptitude - atheist father - Catholic mother) to describe my beliefs.
Dear nephew,
Your mom told me that you are preparing for the sacrament of Confirmation, and that she has asked some folks, including myself, to write a witness letter as food for thought in your preparation. So here’s my attempt …
Preparing for the Sacrament of Confirmation is a good time to reflect on the axioms of your beliefs.
An axiom is a self-evident universal truth for which no proof is necessary. It is a starting point from which all derived knowledge is founded. In math, you might consider them postulates.
The American Constitution has an example of an axiom …
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…
Note the acknowledgment of a Creator who defines Rights that Governments must safeguard.
Note too that without the acknowledgment of a Creator, the premise that Man is endowed with “certain unalienable Rights” becomes just a matter of public opinion. Morality becomes as unpredictable as weather and modern fashion. Laws can change just as radically, permitting now what would have been serious crimes in the past. Moral relativism is whimsical based on no absolute truths. Therefore, how can one hold a concept of “certain unalienable Rights” if the concept of absolute truths is not accepted. Nothing is certain.
In the movie “The Song of Bernadette”, it started with a quotation which I initially found troublesome:
For the man who believes in God, no explanation is necessary.
For the man who does not believe in God, no explanation is possible.
I’ve come to believe in the truth of the statement. The existence of God is an irreducible fact. Yet, you have to choose to believe the axiom. You can attempt to explain your reason for believing the axiom, but it can neither be proved or disproved with explanations.
In my life, I had little trouble believing in God, even though such a belief boils down to the same irreducible question. That is, if the Universe just exists, or if God who created the Universe just exists, then what caused the Universe or God to come into existence in the first place? Both aspects represents questions about axioms that cannot be explained.
Our Church tells us that God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, who always was and always will be and will always remain the same. Note that always remains the same suggests a timeless, unchanging absolute truth.
I was at a party and the subject of evolution came up. I asked the question, “You’re asking me to believe that from mindless, inanimate, chaos and disorder came intelligent life and a world that is seemingly governed by natural law and order. In my world view, all things that are NOT kept up by intelligent action fall into decline, decay and decomposition. I believe in a universe created and maintained by intelligent design and ongoing action. Your story reminds me of this female comedian whose whole comedy routine revolves around telling a highly contrived story that is favorable to her world view, and when she sees the audience isn’t buying her story, she delivers her punch line…
WELL!!! IT COULD HAPPEN!!!”.
It was interesting that for every common sense objection that I would propose, my debating opponent would point to some “scientific study” (with an agenda?) that would be admittedly flawed, inconclusive but… ahem, clearly suggested that …
“WELL!!! IT COULD HAPPEN!!!”.
What was clear to me was that this individual was way more intelligent and knowledgeable than myself. What was also clear to me was that he presented some fascinating evidence and some logical argument. Yet, what was not clear to me was that he could be characterized as a man of wisdom. The Bible tells us that Wisdom begins with Fear of the Lord. This individual chose as his axiom that God does not exist. That our universe, which suggests a natural law and order to things, came about by chance and happenstance. It’s an axiom that I can’t accept.
…
Let’s look at another axiom that is questionable to most of the world, “Jesus is Lord”.
If you come from another culture, Jesus moral teachings may be compelling, but that is far from asserting that “Jesus is Lord” or that the stories of his miracles are true. How do we know that it is not legend? Without some way to verify the truth of these alleged supernatural events, when evangelizing to a non-believer, one is reduced to exclaiming “WELL!!! IT COULD HAPPEN!!!”.
How do we know whether or not society promotes religious beliefs to manipulate social behavior in a beneficial way with a myth of eternal reward or punishment, augmenting those areas of social behavior that cannot be properly enforced by the rule of law? After all, that has to be the explanation for all the other religions of the world, if they are truly just man-made creations. Why would one believe Christianity over any other religion?
To me, the objective sign that the Catholic Church is the one, true religion which has the blessing of the one, true God are the saints themselves. It is the rich history of miracles testified by people who asked a saint to ask God for some special favor and received a supernatural miracle. It seems that God grants favors through the intercession of saints to signify that that person is a saint and can be reliably emulated as a good role model reflecting the character of God, most especially in some particular aspect.
…
This is a letter I wrote to a nephew (high math aptitude - atheist father - Catholic mother) to describe my beliefs.
Dear nephew,
Your mom told me that you are preparing for the sacrament of Confirmation, and that she has asked some folks, including myself, to write a witness letter as food for thought in your preparation. So here’s my attempt …
Preparing for the Sacrament of Confirmation is a good time to reflect on the axioms of your beliefs.
An axiom is a self-evident universal truth for which no proof is necessary. It is a starting point from which all derived knowledge is founded. In math, you might consider them postulates.
The American Constitution has an example of an axiom …
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…
Note the acknowledgment of a Creator who defines Rights that Governments must safeguard.
Note too that without the acknowledgment of a Creator, the premise that Man is endowed with “certain unalienable Rights” becomes just a matter of public opinion. Morality becomes as unpredictable as weather and modern fashion. Laws can change just as radically, permitting now what would have been serious crimes in the past. Moral relativism is whimsical based on no absolute truths. Therefore, how can one hold a concept of “certain unalienable Rights” if the concept of absolute truths is not accepted. Nothing is certain.
In the movie “The Song of Bernadette”, it started with a quotation which I initially found troublesome:
For the man who believes in God, no explanation is necessary.
For the man who does not believe in God, no explanation is possible.
I’ve come to believe in the truth of the statement. The existence of God is an irreducible fact. Yet, you have to choose to believe the axiom. You can attempt to explain your reason for believing the axiom, but it can neither be proved or disproved with explanations.
In my life, I had little trouble believing in God, even though such a belief boils down to the same irreducible question. That is, if the Universe just exists, or if God who created the Universe just exists, then what caused the Universe or God to come into existence in the first place? Both aspects represents questions about axioms that cannot be explained.
Our Church tells us that God is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, who always was and always will be and will always remain the same. Note that always remains the same suggests a timeless, unchanging absolute truth.
I was at a party and the subject of evolution came up. I asked the question, “You’re asking me to believe that from mindless, inanimate, chaos and disorder came intelligent life and a world that is seemingly governed by natural law and order. In my world view, all things that are NOT kept up by intelligent action fall into decline, decay and decomposition. I believe in a universe created and maintained by intelligent design and ongoing action. Your story reminds me of this female comedian whose whole comedy routine revolves around telling a highly contrived story that is favorable to her world view, and when she sees the audience isn’t buying her story, she delivers her punch line…
WELL!!! IT COULD HAPPEN!!!”.
It was interesting that for every common sense objection that I would propose, my debating opponent would point to some “scientific study” (with an agenda?) that would be admittedly flawed, inconclusive but… ahem, clearly suggested that …
“WELL!!! IT COULD HAPPEN!!!”.
What was clear to me was that this individual was way more intelligent and knowledgeable than myself. What was also clear to me was that he presented some fascinating evidence and some logical argument. Yet, what was not clear to me was that he could be characterized as a man of wisdom. The Bible tells us that Wisdom begins with Fear of the Lord. This individual chose as his axiom that God does not exist. That our universe, which suggests a natural law and order to things, came about by chance and happenstance. It’s an axiom that I can’t accept.
…
Let’s look at another axiom that is questionable to most of the world, “Jesus is Lord”.
If you come from another culture, Jesus moral teachings may be compelling, but that is far from asserting that “Jesus is Lord” or that the stories of his miracles are true. How do we know that it is not legend? Without some way to verify the truth of these alleged supernatural events, when evangelizing to a non-believer, one is reduced to exclaiming “WELL!!! IT COULD HAPPEN!!!”.
How do we know whether or not society promotes religious beliefs to manipulate social behavior in a beneficial way with a myth of eternal reward or punishment, augmenting those areas of social behavior that cannot be properly enforced by the rule of law? After all, that has to be the explanation for all the other religions of the world, if they are truly just man-made creations. Why would one believe Christianity over any other religion?
To me, the objective sign that the Catholic Church is the one, true religion which has the blessing of the one, true God are the saints themselves. It is the rich history of miracles testified by people who asked a saint to ask God for some special favor and received a supernatural miracle. It seems that God grants favors through the intercession of saints to signify that that person is a saint and can be reliably emulated as a good role model reflecting the character of God, most especially in some particular aspect.
…
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