Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[Rich_Olszewski]

The bending and twisting of another person’s statements happens all the time here, and imo it just does not belong on a Catholic forum.

Disagreement is valid, though. As I understood you, you were saying that there were no rational reasons to leave the Church. I, of course, disagree about that.

If you go back and read my responses, you will find that I agree that painful experiences can cause some to leave the Church.

I agreed on that point.

So, I think I have to pray about leaving CA for good, because it seems to me that many people here thrive on such tension-filled conversations.

Don’t leave on that account, please.

 

[wynnejj]

*The bible is Written Tradition which emanated from Oral Tradition. There are other books which speak of the time of Jesus which are not part of the Canon. This does not make them wrong. How do we know of St Anne and St Joaquim? They are not mentioned in the bible. How do know all that Oral Tradition taught? I am sure that it is not all contained in the Bible.

*

Nevertheless, in the case of the Protoevangelium of James, the church deems the document as “apocrypha” which is a proclamation that it is not known to be inerrant. Think of it in the context of an historical novel - much fact, much fiction. There is no doubt that not all truth is contained in the Bible. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception is not biblical … rather the common belief among Catholics was confirmed by the miracle of Our Lady of Lourdes to Saint Bernadette. And the revealed truth of oral tradition did not end with the life of Jesus. New truths are revealed through the saints affirmed by proven miracles and tested for authenticity by consistency with already revealed truths.

 

[irishpatrick]

Disagreement is valid, though. As I understood you, you were saying that there were no rational reasons to leave the Church. I, of course, disagree about that.

I agreed on that point.

Don’t leave on that account, please.

Disagreement is often a very good thing, simply because it can lead to clarity. However, the bending and twisting of what people say, is a frequent event on CA–that is what I dislike. I see enough politics in regular life, I have no stomach for it on a faith board.

I have attained a place in my life where I now realize that all the arguing (done just for the sake of arguing) is an enormous waste of time–because it leads to people bending statements from others just so they can feel like they won, or that they somehow got the upper hand.

 

[CMatt25]

Except that it was you who focused on it; so apparently it is very “important” to you. You drew a strained relationship between outreach and attire, which makes it appear that you associate casual clothing with superior charity (and/or more pure intentions); more formal clothing with inferior charity (or more suspect, less pure intentions). They are not related. There is no reason to bring up clothing, and you brought it up – no one else.

Actually Elizabeth based on the response, what someone wears to Mass or the Vatican appears far more important to others than it does to me. I know what the response of many on CAF always is when the matter comes up. I only brought it up to show a fellow in shorts and a tee shirt @ Mass can show the love of God to another (in this case me) as well as someone could dressed up. Actually I was feeling pretty good about my experience but now I’m becoming discouraged once again. Maybe though I would still have to see if the opinions of some on an internet forum reflects real life in this particular parish if I do go back now. I’ve only been there 3 times.

 

[CMatt25]

Whoever told you that you would go to hell did a terrible thing. No human can claim with any certainty than any other person will go to hell. The Church does not even tell individual people they will go to hell, it merely defines the parameters.

If the parameters as defined by the Catholic Church are not met by an individual person, does the Church claim the person will go to hell or in other words could not be saved? I know CCC say something about if you once believed and knew but do not remain, you could not be saved.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

What about people who were directly involved? I had a (well loved by the parish) priest try to rape me when I was younger. When I brought it up to archbishop, he blew me off, and said “I must have had it coming.” Then they “accidently” gave out my full name in the state Catholic newspaper. And the parishioners were not very nice to me. I was attacked by men who thought I was now “easy” and women would throw garbage at me. So I can’t even go by a Catholic Church without wanting to cry or be sick. So going to Mass is right out. The last time I tried to go to Mass I ended up crying for hours. And I’ve tried going back, but the memory of it always comes back. And I’ve been to therapy, but nothing will make the memory go away.

Later, I got a letter of apology from the archdiocese. The priest was finally caught after raping several woman over several years (I was the only woman who fought him off). Like an apology will restore my reputation. I thought priests were supposed to be representatives of Jesus on Earth. To say, “just suck it up and go to Mass” doesn’t work.

Not that this offers much consolation, but remember: It was a human being who assaulted you. It was a human being who did not take your accusations seriously and embarrassed you by releasing your name. It was human beings who ostracized you. It was human beings who tried to take advantage of your “promiscuity”.

It was not the Church who did any of these things. The Church is a perfect organization made up of imperfect people. You should not hate the CHURCH because of what PEOPLE did to you.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

If the parameters as defined by the Catholic Church are not met by an individual person, does the Church claim the person will go to hell or in other words could not be saved? I know CCC say something about if you once believed and knew but do not remain, you could not be saved.

You get only one bite at the apple:

Hebrews 6:4–6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Not that this offers much consolation, but remember: It was a human being who assaulted you. It was a human being who did not take your accusations seriously and embarrassed you by releasing your name. It was human beings who ostracized you. It was human beings who tried to take advantage of your “promiscuity”.

It was not the Church who did any of these things. The Church is a perfect organization made up of imperfect people. You should not hate the CHURCH because of what PEOPLE did to you.

That’s a bit disengenuous. Who represents the Church except those human beings? To the degree that they do, they involve the Church in what happened.

 

[agnes_therese]

This assertion caught my interest. I see where the angel Gabriel asserts that Mary is “highly favored”. I see where Elizabeth says “Blessed are you among women”. Nowhere do I see a scriptural reference that describes Mary as “full of grace”. We say the Hail Mary, but the prayer has elements that are scriptural and elements that are professions of faith based on oral tradition.

Luke 1:28, RSV-CE:
And he [Gabriel] came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

 

[Lost_Sheep]

The American Constitution has an example of an axiom …

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness…
…

That quote is from the Declaration of Independence; not the Constitution.

 

[wynnejj]

Luke 1:28, RSV-CE:
And he [Gabriel] came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

Just curious about the reference…

My NAB (1970 has Luke 1:28 read as…
Upon arriving, the angel said to her: “Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women.”.

That clears the confusion. Thanks.

 

[CountrySinger]

Not that this offers much consolation, but remember: It was a human being who assaulted you. It was a human being who did not take your accusations seriously and embarrassed you by releasing your name. It was human beings who ostracized you. It was human beings who tried to take advantage of your “promiscuity”.

It was not the Church who did any of these things. The Church is a perfect organization made up of imperfect people. You should not hate the CHURCH because of what PEOPLE did to you.

But they were acting in the name of holy Catholic Church. I was told I was an enemy of the Church. For better or worse, they represent the Church.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

But they were acting in the name of holy Catholic Church. I was told I was an enemy of the Church. For better or worse, they represent the Church.

They do, and it should not have been like that, for you or anyone else. Corragio!

 

[wynnejj]

But they were acting in the name of holy Catholic Church. I was told I was an enemy of the Church. For better or worse, they represent the Church.

This is too much like saying…
Devils are acting in the name of the angels. I was told I was an enemy of the angels. For better or worse, devils represents the angels.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

This is too much like saying…
Devils are acting in the name of the angels. I was told I was an enemy of the angels. For better or worse, devils represents the angels.

Hmmm? Don’t agree with your POV. These are not devils or angels, but men who represented our Church.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

This assertion caught my interest. I see where the angel Gabriel asserts that Mary is “highly favored”. I see where Elizabeth says “Blessed are you among women”. Nowhere do I see a scriptural reference that describes Mary as “full of grace”. We say the Hail Mary, but the prayer has elements that are scriptural and elements that are professions of faith based on oral tradition.

“full of grace” and “highly favored” depend on the translation one uses.

THe Douay-Rheims, the version I use, says this:

“And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

The Greek (which Luke was written in) says* κεχαριτωμένη*, which literally translated, means “endued with grace”. A word study of endued indicates a quality that ones assumes as a gift of another. Since God is the only One capable of endowing someone with grace, we can then directly correlate that Mary was full of grace, not because of personal awesomeness, but because she humbly accepted the gift that God bestowed on her.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

One thread, two unconnected topics. We on the Board CAN walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

[irishpatrick]

If the parameters as defined by the Catholic Church are not met by an individual person, does the Church claim the person will go to hell or in other words could not be saved? I know CCC say something about if you once believed and knew but do not remain, you could not be saved.

The Church defines the parameters, but it never says what inidividuals will go to hell–mainly because it is impossible for the Church to read a person’s heart and mind. All the Church can do is teach what Christ taught about salvation, and teach what the Holy Spirit handed down regarding salvation–the rest lies in the hands of every individual person.

 

[wynnejj]

“full of grace” and “highly favored” depend on the translation one uses.

THe Douay-Rheims, the version I use, says this:

“And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

The Greek (which Luke was written in) says* κεχαριτωμένη*, which literally translated, means “endued with grace”. A word study of endued indicates a quality that ones assumes as a gift of another. Since God is the only One capable of endowing someone with grace, we can then directly correlate that Mary was full of grace, not because of personal awesomeness, but because she humbly accepted the gift that God bestowed on her.

I think many non-Catholic Christians have trouble with our devotion to Mary as being one who is perfect - that is, never sinned - because of the story of the rich man who sought to be perfect…

Mark 10: 18 Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good?* No one is good but God alone."

• [10:18] Why do you call me good?: Jesus repudiates the term “good” for himself and directs it to God, the source of all goodness who alone can grant the gift of eternal life; cf. Mt 19:16–17.

Per the footnote, it would seem that “good” refers to the ability to give good things which only God can do, whereas perfection is perfect cooperation with God, the source of all goodness.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I think many non-Catholic Christians have trouble with our devotion to Mary as being one who is perfect - that is, never sinned - because of the story of the rich man who sought to be perfect…

Mark 10: 18 Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good?* No one is good but God alone."

• [10:18] Why do you call me good?: Jesus repudiates the term “good” for himself and directs it to God, the source of all goodness who alone can grant the gift of eternal life; cf. Mt 19:16–17.

Per the footnote, it would seem that “good” refers to the ability to give good things which only God can do, whereas perfection is perfect cooperation with God, the source of all goodness.