A
- Status
S
St_Francis
Guest
AnnaBelle Marie,
I guess you want to avoid reading a response so you put your response inside the quote so it couldn’t be quoted…
My original comments along these lines were prompted by the Cardinal’s remarks about people who do not practice their Faith but who expect to be able to have a church wedding, have their children baptized, etc. And yes, I agree with him that non-practicing people should start practicing their Faith if they want a Catholic wedding or they want their children to be baptized, and stop wanting a Catholic wedding or having their children baptized if they do not want to practice the Faith.
And yeah, I think that the Church would be better off if people like Nancy Pelosi and her ilk were to either decide to live as Catholics in *all *areas of their lives or leave and stop telling the world that it’s ok to be Catholic and support a woman’s right to choose to pay someone to kill her unborn child. Yes, I think that people like this *are *tainting the Church, and that Christ said about people who led His little ones into sin that it would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their necks and they were thrown into the sea.
I have seen the harm caused by people like this. A nun approved an abortion to be performed in a Catholic hospital! A murder was committed because of this woman’s denial of the teaching of the Church.
It isn’t like the only place a person can have a conversion of heart is inside a Church, nor does being inside a church mean that a person is more likely to accept God’s grace to have that conversion.
I think that these people should be honest with themselves and say, I am for God, or I am against God, and not waffle about ignoring God and then complaining because the Church won’t baptize their babies.
I think that Pelosi, et al, should stop promoting themselves as Catholic to look better for their electorate while supporting the killing of babies.
You seem to remember that one of the acts of mercy is to instruct the ignorant, but another is to admonish the sinner. You seem to forget that Christ Himself told the Apostles to shake the dust of the town which would not receive them off their sandals.
Yes, the father came running, and you said, after the son took the step.
I think that Catholics Come Home programs are great. I think that when someone wants to return to the Church, it is wonderful to have a program like that, and I think that reaching out and informing people is also great. What I was criticizing was not the program, but* the lack of acknowledgement that it is not our efforts which bring people back tot he Church.* We do not have sufficient prayer and sacrifice; we don’t even ahve homilies about praying and sacrificing so that God’s grace can come to people.
I am not judging people: I am stating a fact. Not everyone has a reason like yours to leave the Church. Not everyone who has left has been abused, or embarrassed by the priest, or anything like that. All I was saying is that lots of people have left because they did not want to follow the moral teachings of the Church. They wanted to sleep with their b/gfs, they wanted to use abc, they wanted to sleep in on Sundays. And I think it is important to acknowledge that these people do in fact exist.
And these people may come back to the Church. And if they do, as I mentioned before, I will be happy about it. I just do not think that being nice to these people and saying C’mon back, we don’t care if you continue to sin or support killing babies or sleep in on Sundays, we just want you back, is not going to help those people become the people that God wants them to be.
Moreover, not acknowleging that someone who is returning left for that sort of reason will prevent helping that person grapple with the issue which caused him to leave! It will prevent our teaching him the why and the how of dealing with his particular issue.
Cardinal Dolan himself said that the bishops didn’t teach properly about abc; I’m not the only one saying this stuff.
You know, when people say, Some people rob banks, you don’t need to jump up and accuse them of calling you a bank robber. My saying that our prayers and sacrifices will be more effective in bringing people back to the Church is not saying that we shouldn’t have programs to help people return to the Church. It is instead saying that the Church teaches that prayer and sacrifice are the most powerful things we can do, that enlisting God’s help in these matters is important; it is important because we teach by what we do.
When whoever sets up these programs sets them up and *doesn’t *ask for prayer and sacrifice, what are they teahcing the people in the pews? What are they saying about what they themselves believe? because it looks to me like they are saying that we humans can do more than God can do, that we don’t need His help.
My mother left the Church when I was young. As a result, I did not grow up in the Church and was as secular as any non-baptized American. My brother and my sister got even less of the Faith than I did as they are younger than I am. Their familes are not Catholic.
My aunts and uncles also left. One aunt kept telling me about how she ran into nuns she had known who had left the convent to live immoral lifestyles. Their families are also not Catholic; some of the children have not even been baptized.
I returned to the Church over 15 years ago, because God swung His arm around me and brought me back at the pace at which I needed to go. I would have come back sooner had I known more, had I understood what was in the Church, enough to persevere against difficulties I encountered earlier.
So it’s not like I know nothing about this issue.
I guess you want to avoid reading a response so you put your response inside the quote so it couldn’t be quoted…
My original comments along these lines were prompted by the Cardinal’s remarks about people who do not practice their Faith but who expect to be able to have a church wedding, have their children baptized, etc. And yes, I agree with him that non-practicing people should start practicing their Faith if they want a Catholic wedding or they want their children to be baptized, and stop wanting a Catholic wedding or having their children baptized if they do not want to practice the Faith.
And yeah, I think that the Church would be better off if people like Nancy Pelosi and her ilk were to either decide to live as Catholics in *all *areas of their lives or leave and stop telling the world that it’s ok to be Catholic and support a woman’s right to choose to pay someone to kill her unborn child. Yes, I think that people like this *are *tainting the Church, and that Christ said about people who led His little ones into sin that it would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their necks and they were thrown into the sea.
I have seen the harm caused by people like this. A nun approved an abortion to be performed in a Catholic hospital! A murder was committed because of this woman’s denial of the teaching of the Church.
It isn’t like the only place a person can have a conversion of heart is inside a Church, nor does being inside a church mean that a person is more likely to accept God’s grace to have that conversion.
I think that these people should be honest with themselves and say, I am for God, or I am against God, and not waffle about ignoring God and then complaining because the Church won’t baptize their babies.
I think that Pelosi, et al, should stop promoting themselves as Catholic to look better for their electorate while supporting the killing of babies.
You seem to remember that one of the acts of mercy is to instruct the ignorant, but another is to admonish the sinner. You seem to forget that Christ Himself told the Apostles to shake the dust of the town which would not receive them off their sandals.
Yes, the father came running, and you said, after the son took the step.
I think that Catholics Come Home programs are great. I think that when someone wants to return to the Church, it is wonderful to have a program like that, and I think that reaching out and informing people is also great. What I was criticizing was not the program, but* the lack of acknowledgement that it is not our efforts which bring people back tot he Church.* We do not have sufficient prayer and sacrifice; we don’t even ahve homilies about praying and sacrificing so that God’s grace can come to people.
I am not judging people: I am stating a fact. Not everyone has a reason like yours to leave the Church. Not everyone who has left has been abused, or embarrassed by the priest, or anything like that. All I was saying is that lots of people have left because they did not want to follow the moral teachings of the Church. They wanted to sleep with their b/gfs, they wanted to use abc, they wanted to sleep in on Sundays. And I think it is important to acknowledge that these people do in fact exist.
And these people may come back to the Church. And if they do, as I mentioned before, I will be happy about it. I just do not think that being nice to these people and saying C’mon back, we don’t care if you continue to sin or support killing babies or sleep in on Sundays, we just want you back, is not going to help those people become the people that God wants them to be.
Moreover, not acknowleging that someone who is returning left for that sort of reason will prevent helping that person grapple with the issue which caused him to leave! It will prevent our teaching him the why and the how of dealing with his particular issue.
Cardinal Dolan himself said that the bishops didn’t teach properly about abc; I’m not the only one saying this stuff.
You know, when people say, Some people rob banks, you don’t need to jump up and accuse them of calling you a bank robber. My saying that our prayers and sacrifices will be more effective in bringing people back to the Church is not saying that we shouldn’t have programs to help people return to the Church. It is instead saying that the Church teaches that prayer and sacrifice are the most powerful things we can do, that enlisting God’s help in these matters is important; it is important because we teach by what we do.
When whoever sets up these programs sets them up and *doesn’t *ask for prayer and sacrifice, what are they teahcing the people in the pews? What are they saying about what they themselves believe? because it looks to me like they are saying that we humans can do more than God can do, that we don’t need His help.
My mother left the Church when I was young. As a result, I did not grow up in the Church and was as secular as any non-baptized American. My brother and my sister got even less of the Faith than I did as they are younger than I am. Their familes are not Catholic.
My aunts and uncles also left. One aunt kept telling me about how she ran into nuns she had known who had left the convent to live immoral lifestyles. Their families are also not Catholic; some of the children have not even been baptized.
I returned to the Church over 15 years ago, because God swung His arm around me and brought me back at the pace at which I needed to go. I would have come back sooner had I known more, had I understood what was in the Church, enough to persevere against difficulties I encountered earlier.
So it’s not like I know nothing about this issue.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Other than CCC 846 says “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”Not at all. The Church says that one does not have to be a formal member of the Church to be saved.
I never have been able to get a unanimous answer if that means for someone who once believed/knew but who had a change in beliefs and “left”, if this means they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of “can not” or if it merely means they might not be.
C
CMatt25
Guest
C
CMatt25
Guest
S
St_Francis
Guest
A person who knows that the Church founded by Christ is necessary for salvation but rejects it, either by refusing to enter or remain in it can not be saved.Other than CCC 846 says “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
I never have been able to get a unanimous answer if that means for someone who once believed/knew but who had a change in beliefs and “left”, if this means they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of “can not” or if it merely means they might not be.
Christ said He who rejects you (meaning the Apostles), rejects Me…
So as long as a person knowingly rejects Christ in His Body the Church, how can he be saved? But the issue is with the knowingly.
One thing that interested me in the OT is that in Leciticus (or maybe Deuteronomy), certain actions are prescribed for *when someone realizes he has sinned, *This was repeated over and over: When someone realizes he has done this, he shall do that (in reparation), for a lot of different things.
A person is raised in the Church, but comes to a point of confusion. Does this person actually *know? *were they well-catchised? Are they going through a normal period of doubt as they go through the transition from childlike faith to adult faith? Or are they leaning towards sin?
The Church cannot say: only God and oneself knows the state of one’s heart, and sometimes one is not sure!
But it is necessary for the person to whom it has been claimed to grapple with the idea and not to reject it, and certainly not reject it in favor of sin.
A person does not have to “feel” faith in order to “act” faith: just as a wife may not always “feel” love for her husband but can decide to “act” it in obedience to the vows she made, so must a person who understands that the Church is necessary for salvation “act” the faith and obedience he does not feel.
But to reject the Church in a way that one cannot be saved is like mortal sin: one cannot do it inadvertantly, but one *can *drift into mortal sin by ignoring what he supposed to be doing.
So in the case of any particular person, this question cannot be answered without serious study of the person, bit for the person who says: Non serviam; I will not serve, as Lucifer did, how can that person be saved while in that state?
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Feeney reconciled with the Church. The Church didn’t bend to align itself with him.
As far as Feeney being right about having to formally be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation and his denying Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire, the Church denies that.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
The operative words are “knows” and “knowingly,” and the proper definition of them.
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Why blame it all on sexual issues?
There are those who lose the faith without wanting to commit sexual sins, those who have intellectual difficulties with the Church and prefer to just walk away and let the Church be. Okay, this is anecdotal, but the “ex-Catholics” I know don’t hanker to bed their men or ladyfriends, they just don’t believe any more.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Yes and while I know Catholics here don’t believe someone can be well catechized and not remain, but what of the person who was well catechized and truly believed and thus knew the Church was necessary well into adulthood. But then if even much later in life as an adult experienced a change in belief and truly no longer believed the Church was necessary? They would have known it to be necssarily at one time but no longer and therefore might not “remain”. So this person can not be saved?
C
CMatt25
Guest
So if the “exes” you know, once believed and knew but now no longer believe, can they be saved? Or are you just thinking too they were improperly catechized and never knew?Why blame it all on sexual issues?
There are those who lose the faith without wanting to commit sexual sins, those who have intellectual difficulties with the Church and prefer to just walk away and let the Church be. Okay, this is anecdotal, but the “ex-Catholics” I know don’t hanker to bed their men or ladyfriends, they just don’t believe any more.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Setting aside those who were not old enough to vow or perhaps to understand what it was they were vowing, what of others who vowed and knew but no longer believe the Church leadership is true, and they then no longer obey? They can not be saved?
R
Rich_Olszewski
Guest
It all hinges on “knows” and “knowledge,” what they “knew” and how well they knew it. Bottom line is that I can’t judge, nor can anyone else; I leave the salvation of those folks up to a merciful God.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Or is the answer just always the same? Either that they weren’t well catechized. Or are confused. Or never truly knew.
I only ask because I don’t necessarily buy into those answers because I think it might be possible someone could have been properly catechized, truly knew in faith and in belief at one time, but had a change of belief, and aren’t confused as to what they believe. So besides the ambiguity of “could not” either meaning “can not” or simply “might not”, this is another reason why the manner in which CCC 846 is written remains a puzzle to me. And now we have the meaning of “know” in the picture as well.
I only ask because I don’t necessarily buy into those answers because I think it might be possible someone could have been properly catechized, truly knew in faith and in belief at one time, but had a change of belief, and aren’t confused as to what they believe. So besides the ambiguity of “could not” either meaning “can not” or simply “might not”, this is another reason why the manner in which CCC 846 is written remains a puzzle to me. And now we have the meaning of “know” in the picture as well.
C
CMatt25
Guest
me too
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Nice of you to judge my motives for me…with that lack of charity…I have nothing further to dialog with you
I will ask are we only called to forgive those who ask for forgiveness or are repentant?
W
wynnejj
Guest
No. And it is sometimes extremely hard to do if betrayed by a loved one. You are to love your enemies, especially loved ones who betray you, to your dying day. One very good reason is you have no possible way to understand their innermost motivations.
B
BenedictFTW
Guest
It is fairly obvious that St Francis is not judging you. He is bending over backwards in order to put things plainly without judging anyone. His answer was insightful and charitable. Be fair.Nice of you to judge my motives for me…with that lack of charity…I have nothing further to dialog with you
I will ask are we only called to forgive those who ask for forgiveness or are repentant?
S
St_Francis
Guest
I believe that we are called to forgive as we would have God, Our Father, forgive us…
I believe that we are called to forgive others regardless of whether they repent or ask forgiveness.
However, I do not believe that forgiveness means “forgiving and forgetting” as if nothing had happened. I think that a boss can in his heart forgive an employee who embezzled from him while declining to re-hire him as a bookkeeper.
I think that the father of the prodigal son forgave his son, well, instantaneously, altho I have read that in that culture what the son did was a more awful act than it would be in our culture, indicating a type of rejection of the father. But I believe that the father, altho very sad about his departed son, was always willing to accept him back on the terms he eventually was able to welcome him back.
But! the father knew that he had to wait for the son to repent before a reciprocal relationship could be restored. The father did not chase after the son or keep an eye on him, or make sure that he was comfortable and well-fed. The father, altho he had forgiven, waited until the son came back to him, then ran out to greet him.
W
wynnejj
Guest
I think it goes like this…
We are required to ask forgiveness and repent, in order to be forgiven by God the Father.
We are required to forgive others unconditionally regardless of their disposition.
Justice requires repayment, paid in full by Our Lord, but only to the measure that we have mercy on others.
Mercy requires forgiving repayment.
One has to give mercy to get mercy, else we get justice.
- Status