Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[St_Francis]

The operative words are “knows” and “knowingly,” and the proper definition of them.

Yes and while I know Catholics here don’t believe someone can be well catechized and not remain, but what of the person who was well catechized and truly believed and thus knew the Church was necessary well into adulthood. But then if even much later in life as an adult experienced a change in belief and truly no longer believed the Church was necessary? They would have known it to be necssarily at one time but no longer and therefore might not “remain”. So this person can not be saved?

Christ said Judge not lest ye be judged. This is often used against people who say things like, _____ is a sin. When the phrase is used to criticize people who say that certain actions are sinful, the phrase is wrongly used.

The proper use of the phrase is for situation just like this. For example, I knew a woman for decades, and then she died. She was a non-practicing Catholic. And I pray for her soul several times a week. I also knew a man who died apparently an atheist. And I pray for his soul several times a week.

For me to say that these two people are definitely in one place or definitely in the other would be for me to be judging their souls, which is what Christ was talking about when He said, Judge not lest ye be judged.

CMatt, all the examples you give, I cannot tell you whether or not the individuals involved in those scenarios can or cannot be saved, because that is entirely up to God. The Church teaches that we should pray for their reversion while they are alive, and pray for their souls after they die.

If the Church thought what Fr Feeney claimed, that no one physically outside the Church could be saved, then the Church would tell us not to pray for their souls after death. But the Church does not tell us that, on the contrary, the Church encourages to pray for their souls after death.

Therefore, I would say that the Church does not teach us that it is totally impossible for these people to be saved.

However, the Church does teach us what to do about these situations, which is to pray, do the duties of our state of life, and offer sacrifices for these people. This is very important. Do we believe that there is a possiblity that they can be saved? Then we must help, no? And that is the way we help.

Whether a person is saved or not is known with finality only at the moment of death, and even then, those left in this world are not often priveleged to know. In the moment after death, metaphorically speaking, does the person see Christ and run to Him with open arms saying, I did not know where to find You; I was looking all over for You!

Or does the person step away and say, no, I didn’t want You before, and I don’t want you now?

 

[St_Francis]

Or is the answer just always the same? Either that they weren’t well catechized. Or are confused. Or never truly knew.

I only ask because I don’t necessarily buy into those answers because I think it might be possible someone could have been properly catechized, truly knew in faith and in belief at one time, but had a change of belief, and aren’t confused as to what they believe. So besides the ambiguity of “could not” either meaning “can not” or simply “might not”, this is another reason why the manner in which CCC 846 is written remains a puzzle to me. And now we have the meaning of “know” in the picture as well.

The issue of proper catechesis is a tricky one. A person may have received a lot of dry Catholic teaching through the course of many years, yet not been properly catechized, for lack of what he or she really needed, or because of a monkeywrench thrown in the teachings like the scandal, etc.

However, in among catechesis should be the teaching of how to deal with a loss of faith. So many people think that when they stop feeling something, they are losing their faith. A person with sufficient catechesis would know what to do, would look for a spiritual director, would ask for advice, would double up on his prayers, try to attend daily Mass at least once or twice each week, etc.

So that is why I say that a person with sufficient catechesis, which I also say is hard to find these days, would not leave the Church.

The person you posit would, at the moment of thinking he had lost his faith, be at a decision-making point. He would need to decide one way or another, for Christ or away from Christ. The problem is that it might look to us like he is deciding against Christ when inside he is deciding for Christ but just in the wrong direction from our point of view.

So again, *no one, *even those who appear to be in the Church, achieves final salvation until the moment of death. A person may leave the Church for decades, then while dying ask for a priest and the Last Sacraments. At no moment along his life outside the Church could anyone have known what he was going to do, so we can’t say anything about people one way or the other.

(This is a tricky subject, so I hope I am being clear…)

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It is fairly obvious that St Francis is not judging you. He is bending over backwards in order to put things plainly without judging anyone. His answer was insightful and charitable. Be fair.

Did you read the first part where he/she says…I guess you put your response in quotes because you don’t want anyone to respond to you… That is judging… So maybe you should be fair as well.

Actually I tried the multi quote thing and it didn’t work…and the volumes of the post to repy back to…puting in red was the easiest way.

But they assumed why I did that…which is not charitable…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I believe that we are called to forgive as we would have God, Our Father, forgive us…

I believe that we are called to forgive others regardless of whether they repent or ask forgiveness.

However, I do not believe that forgiveness means “forgiving and forgetting” as if nothing had happened. I think that a boss can in his heart forgive an employee who embezzled from him while declining to re-hire him as a bookkeeper.

I think that the father of the prodigal son forgave his son, well, instantaneously, altho I have read that in that culture what the son did was a more awful act than it would be in our culture, indicating a type of rejection of the father. But I believe that the father, altho very sad about his departed son, was always willing to accept him back on the terms he eventually was able to welcome him back.

But! the father knew that he had to wait for the son to repent before a reciprocal relationship could be restored. The father did not chase after the son or keep an eye on him, or make sure that he was comfortable and well-fed. The father, altho he had forgiven, waited until the son came back to him, then ran out to greet him.

Hmmm…now turn the tables to someone who has been hurt by the Church or one of it’s members…

They may forgive…but are you saying that they should have forgotten and remained with the Church.

Or that they need to be the ones turning back first…

 

[St_Francis]

Did you read the first part where he/she says…I guess you put your response in quotes because you don’t want anyone to respond to you… That is judging… So maybe you should be fair as well.

Actually I tried the multi quote thing and it didn’t work…and the volumes of the post to repy back to…puting in red was the easiest way.

But they assumed why I did that…which is not charitable…

If you put your reply within the quoted text, it is impossible to quote your reply, and that makes it much harder to reply to your points. I am very sorry for attributing your doing that to not wanting a reply, that was the wrong thing for me to do.

If you have quoted text, and you want to reply outside the quoted text, what you need to do is to do the following substituting the fancy brackets { } with plain ones ]:

{quote=Annabelle Marie;9222217}When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve{/quote}
Your reply here

{quote}the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,{/quote}
Your reply here

And hopefully it will come out like this:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve

Your reply here

the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,

Your reply here

 

[c0ldb33r]

Although this thread is getting derailed, its nice to see that not everyone in this thread sees fit to dismiss those that leave the Church.

The real question is whether the concerns raised can be fixed or dealt with in a better way.

 

[CMatt25]

Did you read the first part where he/she says…I guess you put your response in quotes because you don’t want anyone to respond to you… That is judging… So maybe you should be fair as well.

Actually I tried the multi quote thing and it didn’t work…and the volumes of the post to repy back to…puting in red was the easiest way.

But they assumed why I did that…which is not charitable…

That multi quote thing has never worked for me.

 

[CMatt25]

I do not believe that forgiveness means “forgiving and forgetting” as if nothing had happened. I think that a boss can in his heart forgive an employee who embezzled from him while declining to re-hire him as a bookkeeper.

The person you posit would, at the moment of thinking he had lost his faith, be at a decision-making point. He would need to decide one way or another, for Christ or away from Christ. The problem is that it might look to us like he is deciding against Christ when inside he is deciding for Christ but just in the wrong direction from our point of view.

St Francis, I hope you don’t mind I pulled and copied and pasted parts of 2 of your posts and put them together here. It’s the only way I know how to multi quote.

First off thank you for your replies to my questions.

Now regarding your words above. I think perhaps this is sort of related to what Annabelle Marie was asking. But if the Catholic who’s been hurt by the Church or a member, forgives, parallel to your employer/bookkeeper scenario, is it ok then if they don’t “rehire” the Church as their guide?

And secondly then are you saying if a Catholic knew, “leaves” and decides for Christ, finding Him elsewhere, even though it is the wrong direction from the Church’s POV, that the person can be saved instead of could not or can not be? If so, what’s the point of CCC 846 being worded as it is?

You’ve mentioned it’s a tricky subject. The whole matter seems tricky to me.

 

[St_Francis]

St Francis, I hope you don’t mind I pulled and copied and pasted parts of 2 of your posts and put them together here. It’s the only way I know how to multi quote.

I have noticed that some features work better on some computers than others, and that the board background is different colors. However, when I first had trouble with the multi-quote, I was clicking the orange box in the first post I wanted to quote, and then just clicking the quote button in the second post. It took me a while to figure out that I had to click the orange multi-quote button in *all *the posts I wanted to quote.

First off thank you for your replies to my questions.

I am going to re-emphasize a point I was trying to make before, which is that *we do not know. *

It’s like if I decide to go to New York from DC. I have directions, which call for me to go along 95N for most of the trip. However, as I go, traffic comes to a Complete Standstill! So I get off 95 and try to drive along parallel and north so as to avoid the traffic.

This may or may not work. I do this sort of thing fairly frequently, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes I get lost and find that I have to retrace my steps back to 95, and sometimes I find that I have driven for miles and miles and ended up only one exit/entrance beyond where I was, and sometimes I get totally lost and am told that I have to return to where I started from.

And it seems that I always have to get back on 95 to enter NY, because otherwise I would be really lost and never get to my destination.

When it comes to salvation, Christ gave us a set of directions. Take 95N! He says. If we decide to get off 95, then we do not know if we will be able to reach our destination, whereas, if we stay on 95, because we trust God, then we will attain our destination, barring unforseen circumstances such as mortal sin (which would be like an accident in my analogy but way too imperfect to really fit in without a lot of explanation.)

What the Church is saying is that under certain circumstances, we know that people who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church *can *be saved. Moses and Elijah, for example, and those who follow God’s law written in their hearts but who have never heard of Christ or the Gospels.

But what the Church *knows *as the way to Heaven are the directions Christ gave, which are found only in the Catholic Church. So this is the only *assured *way the Church can teach.

The Church also knows that the sacraments are seriously helpful to attainiing Heaven.That would be like saying gasoline is necessary for your trip to NYC, and occasional fill-ups, right? And yet, the Good Thief never received the sacraments, so we know that someone *could *walk to NYC, but it would be much harder.

I was very confused when I first heard about the Baptism of Desire, If a person could be baptized by desire, then why did we need to be baptized? Because the BoD *occurs only at the moment of death. *And it only occurs if one *desires *it at the moment of death. If one dies at a moment one does not desire it, then it won’t happen. The Good Thief proclaimed Christ as King at the time (but Christ could see what was in his heart and knew he would hold onto that until he died) of his death. Had he lived and gone off and forgotten about Christ being King, then that desire would have disapated and not been effective for a later death.

But the **main **point is that we do not know about all these *other *ways of attaining Heaven. And we certainly do not know about the final dispositions of particular individuals. So all that we can say of any particular individual is that it is possible that maybe he might could attain Heaven, but not whether he will or does.

**

Now regarding your words above. I think perhaps this is sort of related to what Annabelle Marie was asking. But if the Catholic who’s been hurt by the Church or a member, forgives, parallel to your employer/bookkeeper scenario, is it **ok **

then if they don’t “rehire” the Church as their guide?
What do you mean by “OK?”

And secondly then are you saying if a Catholic knew, “leaves” and decides for Christ, finding Him elsewhere, even though it is the wrong direction from the Church’s POV, that the person can be saved instead of could not or can not be? If so, what’s the point of CCC 846 being worded as it is?

I am saying that *each *person *can *be saved, in that Christ will judge us individually upon our deaths, and according to our dispositions at the time of death.

The route we *know *to salvation is the one Christ taught the Church, but God is not bound by the sacraments. Just as I know that the way to NYC from DC is to travel 95N, so the Church knows that the route to Heaven is by following Church teachings, among which are to receive the sacraments.

However, the person who *actually rejects *Christ’s Body the Church cannot be saved. The problem is that *we *humans here on earth cannot determine *with total certainty *who has *actually rejected *Christ’s Body–this is why the Church refrains from proclaiming that any particular person is in Hell, altho we know that “many” go there, and moreover, the Church refrains from telling us that we cannot pray for souls of those who have died apparently outside the Church.

You’ve mentioned it’s a tricky subject. The whole matter seems tricky to me.

It is very tricky. I would write a little more, but I am afraid I will run out of characters, and also I have some work to do! But I do think this is an important topic to discuss, so I’ll be back in a while–CUL8R!**

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

That multi quote thing has never worked for me.

Hard to do on an iPad and dang near impossible on an iPhone especially if it is a lengthy post you are trying to reply to…

 

[St_Francis]

Hard to do on an iPad and dang near impossible on an iPhone especially if it is a lengthy post you are trying to reply to…

Oh, yeah. If I have a long post to reply on my iPod, which is what I normally have access to (using a computer has become a real luxury for me ), I just C&P to the notepad and work on it there. That way I can do whatever I want and *never worry about what I wrote’s disappearing with a reload! *

the main problem I run into there is a gazillion answers appearing before I get to post my response!

 

[St_Francis]

CMatt and AM,
I am unable to find an image of a blue to red spectrum to paste in here, so I will ask you to imagine that picture.

Blue, the color of Our Lady, will be the good, and red, often associated with Hell, will be the bad.

The first part of the spectrum is completely solidly blue. That represents the people who are *both *in the Church *and *striving to follow Her teachings so as to attain Heaven.

Next we have a part which is a gradated mixture of blue with some red in it. In this section we would find people who are less “in” the Church: people who look to be in the Church but who are not striving to attain Heaven, and people who are striving to attain Heaven but who are not “in” the Church. These people’s positions are determined by where they are spiritually. A person could be very close to the solid blue area because spiritually he is doing everything he can altho he is not “in” the Church, or a person who is “in” the Church but behaving very badly could be really far away from the solid blue area.

Now, the thing about this spectrum is that one cannot determine where the exact tipping point is. We can see that one could be in the solid red area, but we cannot point out an exact spot on the spectrum which is the tipping point since a person has to be in the solid area to be “known” to go to Hell–*we *would not know that a *particular *person is going to Hell, but we know that some or even many do.

And most of what is outside the solid blue area is *unknown *to the Church. We know, for example, that there is Purgatory, and we know there is another place, where Christ went to get the souls of those Saints who died before His death. But most of what lies outside the solid blue area is *not *known, because the very best place to be is *in *that solid blue area.

The result is that, when we who are in the solid blue area see people outside it, we should be moved to pray for them and to make sacrifices for them. Those in the solid blue area see the wonderfulness of being in the blue area and want to share that with others.

Before I take off again, let me add that if a particular person is individually himself in a state of mortal sin, he would be in the solid red area *even if he were still apparently “in” the Church. *

 

[StevenFrancis]

*Their reasons ranged from the personal (“the pastor who crowned himself king and looks down on all”) to the political (“eliminate the extreme conservative haranguing”) to the doctrinal (“don’t spend so much time on issues like homosexuality and birth control”).

In addition, they said, they didn’t like the church’s handling of the clergy sex abuse scandal and were upset that divorced and remarried Catholics are unwelcome at Mass.

…

The respondents also called for better homilies, better music and more accountability of the church staff.*
Story at USA Today

My prayers for all of them. May God bless them and carry them on their journey back to the Church universal. I pray they will all avail themselves of the sacraments of reconciliation and Eucharist and rejoin their brothers and sisters in Christ at the table of plenty.

We have a wonderful Holy Father who daily picks up his cross and fights the good fight for us, and the Church will prevail in the end. Until then, it could get worse before it gets better. I hope people will pray to God for more patience and faith, and for obedience, and subjugation of human pride.

Peace,

Steven

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

My prayers for all of them. May God bless them and carry them on their journey back to the Church universal. I pray they will all avail themselves of the sacraments of reconciliation and Eucharist and rejoin their brothers and sisters in Christ at the table of plenty.

We have a wonderful Holy Father who daily picks up his cross and fights the good fight for us, and the Church will prevail in the end. Until then, it could get worse before it gets better. I hope people will pray to God for more patience and faith, and for obedience, and subjugation of human pride.

Peace,

Steven

And that those who take the first step (for example coming to a Catholics Can Come Home program) can be treated respectfully as they work it out. That we can be as compassionate as the father running out to the prodigal son.

And that we can be understanding as people work out issues/misgivings with church teaching. Ironically what is needed is the same thing the group in the news was saying…better homilies about why some things are that way…

 

[LovesOwn]

I am no longer catholic because…
God is part of my life, not a routine I follow, going to church year after year does not bring you closer to God, living for others, caring, working in orphanges during the time that others are in church, will bring you so close to God.
Jesus didn’t attend temple on a regular basis…
God punishes me whenever I do wrong, a hail mary will never cleanse one of sin
Mary isn’t as good as you say she is…
A roman who killed endlessly and put off his baptism until the last years of his life, instituted the dogma
Jesus never condemned carnel sin, because it’s not a sin, beastiality, asphyxia, pedophilia and rape are unnatural acts, sinful acts… Two people sharing their bodies isn’t.
Jesus never meant that the bread and wine were His Body and Blood, He was doing away with the old laws of Moses, and teaching a new remembrance. That as the Jews remembered the deliverance from Egypt, the Christians were to remember the delivance from hell. Why would he allow us to nibble at His already sacrificed body endlessly? He had entered hell and delivered us, the sacrament holds no truth.
Saints are sinners who care. Living life knowing you are a sinner, but hoping your religion will solve your sinfulness, is living a horrid existence.
Search for God, He loves to be found, but He’s not the church.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I am no longer catholic because…
God is part of my life, not a routine I follow, going to church year after year does not bring you closer to God, living for others, caring, working in orphanges during the time that others are in church, will bring you so close to God.

You can do all those acts as a Catholic.

Jesus didn’t attend temple on a regular basis…

Do we know that, and if so, so what? He is God.
.

God punishes me whenever I do wrong, a hail mary will never cleanse one of sin

That’s just what the Church says.

Mary isn’t as good as you say she is…

Please explain.

A roman who killed endlessly and put off his baptism until the last years of his life, instituted the dogma

Which dogma?

Jesus never condemned carnel sin, because it’s not a sin, beastiality, asphyxia, pedophilia and rape are unnatural acts, sinful acts… Two people sharing their bodies isn’t.

Told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. 'Cause it was a sin.

Jesus never meant that the bread and wine were His Body and Blood, He was doing away with the old laws of Moses, and teaching a new remembrance. That as the Jews remembered the deliverance from Egypt, the Christians were to remember the delivance from hell. Why would he allow us to nibble at His already sacrificed body endlessly? He had entered hell and delivered us, the sacrament holds no truth.

Where did you learn this? Was it through “me an’ ma bible an’ Jayzus?” You are so ignorant on this point that it’s not worth responding on point.

Saints are sinners who care. Living life knowing you are a sinner, but hoping your religion will solve your sinfulness, is living a horrid existence.

Yes, religion doesn’t solve sinfulness. YOU solve your sinfulness by repenting, going to confession, showing sorrow for your sins, and being absolved of your sins by the priest.

Search for God, He loves to be found, but He’s not the church.

We’ve found Him. Why don’t you try to?

 

[rlg94086]

I am no longer catholic because…
God is part of my life, not a routine I follow, going to church year after year does not bring you closer to God, living for others, caring, working in orphanges during the time that others are in church, will bring you so close to God.
Jesus didn’t attend temple on a regular basis…
God punishes me whenever I do wrong, a hail mary will never cleanse one of sin
Mary isn’t as good as you say she is…
A roman who killed endlessly and put off his baptism until the last years of his life, instituted the dogma
Jesus never condemned carnel sin, because it’s not a sin, beastiality, asphyxia, pedophilia and rape are unnatural acts, sinful acts… Two people sharing their bodies isn’t.
Jesus never meant that the bread and wine were His Body and Blood, He was doing away with the old laws of Moses, and teaching a new remembrance. That as the Jews remembered the deliverance from Egypt, the Christians were to remember the delivance from hell. Why would he allow us to nibble at His already sacrificed body endlessly? He had entered hell and delivered us, the sacrament holds no truth.
Saints are sinners who care. Living life knowing you are a sinner, but hoping your religion will solve your sinfulness, is living a horrid existence.
Search for God, He loves to be found, but He’s not the church.

Your experience is interesting, as it is complete opposite of mine. I didn’t have a real relationship with Jesus until I became Catholic. My love for Him has grown exponentially since, and the Communion of Saints and His Mother’s prayers help me daily.

I hope you are led back home someday, and I pray that your journey leads you closer to Our Lord. I will pray a decade of the Rosary for you.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I hope you are led back home someday, and I pray that your journey leads you closer to Our Lord. I will pray a decade of the Rosary for you.

You are too charitable, Robert.

 

[rlg94086]

You are too charitable, Robert.

I get that a lot.

 

[rlg94086]

You are too charitable, Robert.

Having been Atheist, Taoist/Buddhist-leaning Agnostic, born-again fundamentalist Bible Christian and Presbyterian…I understand that where someone is today (e.g. hateful, ex-Catholic trying to rip others away from His Church) is not necessarily where they will end up.

Praying.