Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[St_Francis]

For an Anglophone, there are plenty of Lutheran, Anglican, Baptists, and other denominations. For an Italian or Pole, there’s not much.

Not that you should leave but that’s not what Vatican II said.

Outside the Church there is no salvation. This has been the perennial teaching of the Church; it *cannot *change any more than 2+2=4 can change.

Vatican II was a pastoral council, not a dogmatic one. They recast Church teaching in more modern terms to make them more understandable to non-Catholics, and the documents must be interpreted in light of Tradition.

One cannot enter Heaven except through Christ, Whose Body the Church is. The Church proposes exactly what I have been saying above: that a person who does not appear to us to be united with Christ by being an outwardly practicing Catholic *“may” *yet be sufficiently united in a way unknown to us to enter Heaven. But if that were to occur, it would be *despite *the apparent lack of unity and not because of it.

 

[St_Francis]

What’s to question? *The Bishops are [not] focused on casting blame on those who left…but on welcoming them back…because they are missed and needed.

Too bad everyone can’t have that attitude…

I am quite sure you did not intend your comment to sound as judgemental as it does, so I would like to point out that it is not unreasonable to discuss the reasons people leave the Church in a thread titled Lapsed Catholics Explain why They Leave the Church.

It seems that some think that anyone who leaves the Church has some reason approaching, in human terms, proportionality for leaving, that we should feel their pain and hold their hands… and for those who have been seriously hurt by the Church, I agree. I am happy that that nun was there for you and helped you.*

But the reality is that some people feel “hurt” by a priest’s “arrogance” and lack of understanding when it comes to *sin, *a priest who tells them they cannot be absolved if they plan to continue in their sin, for example, or a priest who explains that some acts are intrinsically sinful and can not ever be justified, etc.

Entry into Heaven is not some right we all have. No one “deserves” to enter into the august Presence of our Creator. It is only through the gift of His grace that any of us even has a chance at entering in.*

Why then should He allow *into Heaven people who reject Him, reject His gifts so dearly paid for? Why should He allow into Heaven someone who cares so little for His gift, the gift of His Son, that he “drifts away”? And why should He allow into Heaven those who put their own selfish desires before the desires of the One Who created them, Who suffered and died for them?

In a thread about reasons people leave the Church, are we supposed to ignore those who leave for selfish reasons? Are we supposed to ignore the children they drag away with them? The scandal they give to others? The harm they do when they criticize the Church injustly? The lies they tell about the Church?

So who is casting blame? Is it casting blame when someone tells a newcomer to avoid a part of town where there is a lot of crime? Is it casting blame to say anything other than criminals are behaving injuriously to themselves, to others, and to society? Is it casting blame to say anything other than that these people have been hurt and need our help?

No, because at some point we understand that an attitude like allows criminals to avoid responsibility for their own actions. At some point, a person must be held responsible for his own actions.*

We talk a lot about the Corporal Works of Mercy, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, etc.

But what good is it to care for a man’s body if we neglect his soul so he’s fed and clothed but still on his way to eternal punishment?

Will we be held accountable for our deficiencies in the Spiritual Works of Mercy? Of instructing the ignorant, counseling the doubtful, chastising the sinner? How can we respond correctly if we deny the problem?

 

[BenedictFTW]

For an Anglophone, there are plenty of Lutheran, Anglican, Baptists, and other denominations. For an Italian or Pole, there’s not much.

Not that you should leave but that’s not what Vatican II said.

Vatican II was not a dogmatic Council. It was pastoral only and should not be taken to be infallible. However, it is the most misinterpreted Council ever in the history of the Church. It never said half of the stuff it is purported to have done. Personally, I believe the Fathers of the Church on this one. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, especially for Catholics!!! Lutherans, etc belong to the Protestant Churches and are heretical in origin. Of course, it is God Who judges the heart of a man, but we have been given our Church by Jesus Christ. Protestants brought theirs about for political reasons in late 1500s. It is a question of Truth -v- heresy.

From Vat II: "All salvation comes through Jesus Christ, the one Savior of the world (cf. Acts 4:12). His Holy Spirit dispenses those graces through His body, the Church. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Lk. 10:16).

Quoting from various documents of Vatican II and Pope Paul VI, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (no. 776) explains:

As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. She is taken up by Him also as the instrument for the salvation of all, the universal sacrament of salvation, by which Christ is at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men. The Church is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity, because God desires that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit. (see also nos. 846-848)"

 

[BenedictFTW]

“The reasons that Catholics cite for missing Mass can be met and overcome by parishes that foster a welcoming environment for adolescents, young adults, singles, married
couples, parents, families, the sick or disabled, and anyone who is no longer active in the faith. The means for fostering a welcoming environment is the New Evangelization. The New Evangelization places a special emphasis on welcoming back to the Lord’s Table all those who are absent, because they are greatly missed and needed to build up the Body of Christ.”

USCCB Disciples Called to Witness

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/upload/Disciples-Called-To-Witness-The-New-Evangelization.pdf

Faithful Catholics are needed in our Church today. Those who have lapsed NEED the Church; you put a worrying spin on things, which seems to get things slightly back to front, if I am reading you right.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Faithful Catholics are needed in our Church today. Those who have lapsed NEED the Church; you put a worrying spin on things, which seems to get things slightly back to front, if I am reading you right.

Actually that quote is STRAIGHT from the Bishops website…so if you think it is worrying take it up with them…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It seems that some think that anyone who leaves the Church has some reason approaching, in human terms, proportionality for leaving, that we should feel their pain and hold their hands… and for those who have been seriously hurt by the Church, I agree. I am happy that that nun was there for you and helped you.*

But the reality is that some people feel “hurt” by a priest’s “arrogance” and lack of understanding when it comes to *sin, *a priest who tells them they cannot be absolved if they plan to continue in their sin, for example, or a priest who explains that some acts are intrinsically sinful and can not ever be justified, etc.

Entry into Heaven is not some right we all have. No one “deserves” to enter into the august Presence of our Creator. It is only through the gift of His grace that any of us even has a chance at entering in.*

Why then should He allow *into Heaven people who reject Him, reject His gifts so dearly paid for? Why should He allow into Heaven someone who cares so little for His gift, the gift of His Son, that he “drifts away”? And why should He allow into Heaven those who put their own selfish desires before the desires of the One Who created them, Who suffered and died for them?

In a thread about reasons people leave the Church, are we supposed to ignore those who leave for selfish reasons? Are we supposed to ignore the children they drag away with them? The scandal they give to others? The harm they do when they criticize the Church injustly? The lies they tell about the Church?

So who is casting blame? Is it casting blame when someone tells a newcomer to avoid a part of town where there is a lot of crime? Is it casting blame to say anything other than criminals are behaving injuriously to themselves, to others, and to society? Is it casting blame to say anything other than that these people have been hurt and need our help?

No, because at some point we understand that an attitude like allows criminals to avoid responsibility for their own actions. At some point, a person must be held responsible for his own actions.*

We talk a lot about the Corporal Works of Mercy, feeding the poor, caring for the sick, etc.

But what good is it to care for a man’s body if we neglect his soul so he’s fed and clothed but still on his way to eternal punishment?

Will we be held accountable for our deficiencies in the Spiritual Works of Mercy? Of instructing the ignorant, counseling the doubtful, chastising the sinner? How can we respond correctly if we deny the problem?

First of all there was no nun…not sure where you got that from…one wonderful priest and lots of wonderful Catholics in our parish who did not judge…,

God can allow anyone into heaven that He wants…you sound like the son that stayed jealous of the Father killing the fatted calf…

And I’m sure you didn’t mean to but did you just compare lapsed Catholics to criminals

 

[rlg94086]

God can allow anyone into heaven that He wants…you sound like the son that stayed jealous of the Father killing the fatted calf…:

One problem with that analogy: lapsed Catholics haven’t returned.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

One problem with that analogy: lapsed Catholics haven’t returned.

Well…not the way we want to treat them they won’t…that’s what we all should want to work on…within reason …obviously we can’t change dogma…but we should understand that everyone is on a faith journey…

 

[rlg94086]

Well…not the way we want to treat them they won’t…that’s what we all should want to work on…within reason …obviously we can’t change dogma…but we should understand that everyone is on a faith journey…

Who is “we?”

 

[St_Francis]

First of all there was no nun…not sure where you got that from…one wonderful priest and lots of wonderful Catholics in our parish who did not judge…,

You *returned. *

God can allow anyone into Heaven He wants…you sound like the son that stayed jealous of the Father killing the fatted calf…

The prodigal son *returned. *

God can allow anyone into Heaven He wants…

This issue is somwtimes looked at backwards.

A person leaves the Church. This is objectively a mortal sin. According to Christ, those persons will **not **be able to attain Heaven.

It *may *be that there is a factor which mitigates a particular person’s guilt.
The Church proposes that this is possible; however, the “default direction” of lapsed Catholocs is downwards.

To say a thing is possible is not to say that it is probable–can you see the difference? So those outside the Church ought to be considered to be going to Hell, whereas some Catholics talk and act as if lapsed Catholics would most probably be admitted into Heaven.

OTOH, we have Catholics who have *returned *to the Church, gone to Confession, etc. These people have, objectively speaking, gotten out of the state of mortal sin. They have repented and told God they want to change.

And I’m sure you didn’t mean to but did you just compare lapsed Catholics to criminals

That was an a analogy, not a comparison.

 

[St_Francis]

Well…not the way we want to treat them they won’t…that’s what we all should want to work on…within reason …obviously we can’t change dogma…but we should understand that everyone is on a faith journey…

How should we treat a lapsed Catholic?

 

[rainbow1]

How should we treat a lapsed Catholic?

With open arms and Christ’s Love…

 

[St_Francis]

With open arms and Christ’s Love…

Yes, so that *when they return, *they will be greeted, but when they return, they are not lapsed Catholics anymore, are they?

What I was referring to was Catholics who have left the Church who do not want to return.

And probably the word I should have used was regard, not treat, since we should be polite to them according to their relationship with us. Most of my Catholoc relatives are lapsed, but I still love them and hug them when I see them–I am not advocating turning one’s back on them.

 

[rlg94086]

Yes, so that *when they return, *they will be greeted, but when they return, they are not lapsed Catholics anymore, are they?

What I was referring to was Catholics who have left the Church who do not want to return.

And probably the word I should have used was regard, not treat, since we should be polite to them according to their relationship with us. Most of my Catholoc relatives are lapsed, but I still love them and hug them when I see them–I am not advocating turning one’s back on them.

Well said. I’m a convert, and I’ve known many “reverts.” Every Catholic rejoices when one of the lost sheep are found or find their way home. We love and pray for them, when they are away. That said, we DON’T confirm them in their error with false ecumenism.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Yes, so that *when they return, *they will be greeted, but when they return, they are not lapsed Catholics anymore, are they?

What I was referring to was Catholics who have left the Church who do not want to return.

And probably the word I should have used was regard, not treat, since we should be polite to them according to their relationship with us. Most of my Catholoc relatives are lapsed, but I still love them and hug them when I see them–I am not advocating turning one’s back on them.

It’s not an all or nothing thing…many lapsed Catholics might go to Mass…just to dip their foot in the water. I did…but I had not returned…and I had not gone to reconciliation yet. How we treat them at this stage is critical.

For some…going to the first Catholics Can Come Home class is a big risk…that is their first step…it make take them awhile to make it to reconciliation…

This is all The Father needed to go running out with open arms…and to kill the fatted calf.

Hounded on them at this stage about how wrong they were is not likely to make them delve further.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

With open arms and Christ’s Love…

 

[St_Francis]

It’s not an all or nothing thing…many lapsed Catholics might go to Mass…just to dip their foot in the water. I did…but I had not returned…and I had not gone to reconciliation yet. How we treat them at this stage is critical.

For some…going to the first Catholics Can Come Home class is a big risk…that is their first step…it make take them awhile to make it to reconciliation…

This is all The Father needed to go running out with open arms…and to kill the fatted calf.

Hounded on them at this stage about how wrong they were is not likely to make them delve further.

I have the impression that we are having a communications problem, and that when I say something about lapsed Catholics like some have left for selfish reasons or that some of them drag others out with them or that their bad-mouthing the Church is a bad thing, or just generally that it is objectively very dangerous to their immortal souls, that you get the impression that I am saying it is bad for Catholics to return or that we should not support them when they return.

 

[St_Francis]

It’s not an all or nothing thing…many lapsed Catholics might go to Mass…just to dip their foot in the water. I did…but I had not returned…and I had not gone to reconciliation yet. How we treat them at this stage is critical.

For some…going to the first Catholics Can Come Home class is a big risk…that is their first step…it make take them awhile to make it to reconciliation…

This is all The Father needed to go running out with open arms…and to kill the fatted calf.

Hounded on them at this stage about how wrong they were is not likely to make them delve further.

I am just not sure how you get from my saying that the Church teaches that people who have left and not returned are putting their eternal lives into great danger to thinking that you need to reiterate that *when people return *we need to be nice to them.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I am just not sure how you get from my saying that the Church teaches that people who have left and not returned are putting their eternal lives into great danger to thinking that you need to reiterate that *when people return *we need to be nice to them.

Because there are all sorts of stages of returning…as I said before. Just as there are all sorts of Catholics sitting in the pew next to us and when we look into a mirror.

Some (like me) may be at Mass for a variety of reasons…For two years I went intermittently when my uncle was up…to suprise my Grandfather. I did not go up for communion. If someone had told me they thought I was going to hell…it would have only confirmed what I thought about Catholics…led by the example by my grandmother…a very pious women and yet at the same time casting judgement on everyone and one of the sourest people I knew. I did not abandon God…I was walking with Him in the Protestant Church…it wasn’t to go out and do whatever I wanted…I learned about the bible there…and learned to accept Jesus’s love there.

I questioned Catholics about their faith and I lot of them could not tell me anything.

The program I went to let us examine our own reasons…and question the church…it gave us the ok to say that some things done were not right…and that they were sorry for that. They did to tell us that we were wrong for leaving or that we were putting our souls in danger of hell. What the members demonstrated to us was why we should come back…that everyone is human…and that Catholics can be loving.

For example…Being Protestant I did not agree with the teaching that ABC was wrong. It was one of our dislikes. Then mid way through the course…Fr. talked about it…not in a you are going to hell kind of way…but some reasons why. But it wasn’t until a month later after the class ended that I found myself in reconciliation about it.

What I hear from you seems to be judgement on those who left and have not returned. You never know where they may be. I certainly never would have told anyone the real reasons I left…and my own relatives might have “thought” they knew…they had/have no idea even to this day.

 

[St_Francis]

Because there are all sorts of stages of returning…as I said before. Just as there are all sorts of Catholics sitting in the pew next to us and when we look into a mirror.

Some (like me) may be at Mass for a variety of reasons…For two years I went intermittently when my uncle was up…to suprise my Grandfather. I did not go up for communion. If someone had told me they thought I was going to hell…it would have only confirmed what I thought about Catholics…led by the example by my grandmother…a very pious women and yet at the same time casting judgement on everyone and one of the sourest people I knew. I did not abandon God…I was walking with Him in the Protestant Church…it wasn’t to go out and do whatever I wanted…I learned about the bible there…and learned to accept Jesus’s love there.

I questioned Catholics about their faith and I lot of them could not tell me anything.

I agree this is a huge problem.

The program I went to let us examine our own reasons…and question the church…it gave us the ok to say that some things done were not right…and that they were sorry for that. They did to tell us that we were wrong for leaving or that we were putting our souls in danger of hell. What the members demonstrated to us was why we should come back…that everyone is human…and that Catholics can be loving.

For example…Being Protestant I did not agree with the teaching that ABC was wrong. It was one of our dislikes. Then mid way through the course…Fr. talked about it…not in a you are going to hell kind of way…but some reasons why. But it wasn’t until a month later after the class ended that I found myself in reconciliation about it.

What I hear from you seems to be judgement on those who left and have not returned. You never know where they may be. I certainly never would have told anyone the real reasons I left…and my own relatives might have “thought” they knew…they had/have no idea even to this day.

There is a difference between explaining Catholic teachings on a Catholic board and talking to a particular person with particular problems. I don’t tell my relatives that they are going to Hell, for example–I am not in a position to say that, first of all, and secondly, there is a time and a place for saying *a person who leaves the Church is objectively on their way down, *and I have never been in the time and place to say something like “I fear for your soul… I am trying to get to Heaven and I would like to see you there.”

I have tried very hard to be clear that I am speaking about general situations and not any particular circumstance. I also tried to make it clear that I appreciated the idea of the programs, and that I thought people’s returning was a great idea!

But this is the thing: my mother left the Church when I was young, and badmouthed the Church so I didn’t think it worth investigating. Altho I had been to Catholic school, I had learned very little of the Faith (the school was not strongly Catholic, apparently).

I honestly feel that God put His Arm around me and brought me slowly back into the Church–over the course of several years. But I am very grateful to Him for this, because otherwise, I would not even be thinking about attaining Heaven and would be headed towards Hell.

And when people sort of ignore the fact that there are people on their way to Hell–we don’t know who they are, but we know the circumstances which make this a much stronger likelihood–they don’t worry too much about those outside the Church. They don’t realize the importance of praying for people. They have a sort of live-and-let-live attitude and think that God will too. *And this is very dangerous! *It may be that God brought me back to the Church to pray for those others so that they would have a better chance at returning.

So, altho I like the programs, and the document you linked to, one thing I don’t see is the importance of prayer–prayer for those still outside the Church and prayer for the program. And I believe that the Church should be emphasizing the importance of prayer in these situations.

The fact that I say that people who, say, use abc are committing a mortal sin should not be taken to mean that I am saying that I know Mrs Doe (who uses abc) is on her way to Hell. But knowing that using abc is a mortal sin which objectively leads to Hell should inspire all of us to pray more for people in that situation, and should remind each of us to consider the state of *our own *souls… we may not use abc, but what about our doing ______? or not doing ______?