Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[Rich_Olszewski]

A person leaves the Church. This is objectively a mortal sin. According to Christ, those persons will **not **be able to attain Heaven.

Not true. First, for a sin to be mortal, a sin, unlike a venial sin, must meet all of the following conditions:

1. subject must be a grave matter;
2. it must be committed with full knowledge
3. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

Absent all those conditions (not just 1 or 2 out of 3!) it is not a mortal sin.

Secondly, if the person left without sufficient knowledge of Catholicism, knew what he or she was abandoning - improper catechesis, perhaps - it’s no sin and doesn’t affect that person’s salvation.

 

[St_Francis]

Not true. First, for a sin to be mortal, a sin, unlike a venial sin, must meet all of the following conditions:

1. subject must be a grave matter;
2. it must be committed with full knowledge
3. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

Absent all those conditions (not just 1 or 2 out of 3!) it is not a mortal sin.

Which is why I followed the part of my response which you quoted with the other part: “It *may *be that there is a factor with mitigates a perticular person’s guilt. The Church proposes that this is possible; however, the “default direction” of lapsed Catholics is downward.”

You seem to think that everyone is on their way to Heaven *unless *they commit a mortal sin. The reality is that *no one *is on their way to Heaven *unless *they cooperate with God’s graces, which He sends sufficient of to each person to attain salvation. It *may *be that a particular person will be judged by Christ after death to have factors which mitigate his culpability wrt to his objective sins; however, we certainly cannot count on this, esp for those baptized into the Church.

Like most other teachings of the Church, one can go too far in one direction or too far in the other direction: in this case, one can become excessively scrupulous, *but one can also become excessively presumptive, *thinking that Christ will forgive all if one did not get a Phd in moral theology and examine all aspects of what they were doing for a few years before doing it.

A person who *avoids *learning enough about the Church’s position on a certain sin and then assumes that God will forgive him for committing that sin due to lack of full knowledge is trying to deceive God–Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. The person had *sufficient *knowledge to avoid learning more–do you really think that Christ will let that person slide? When the Church mentions “invincible ignoranace,” what is meant is that it would have been beyond the power of that person to find out the necessary knowledge, not that a person was so stubborn that he avoided learning more.

Secondly, if the person left without sufficient knowledge of Catholicism, knew what he or she was abandoning - improper catechesis, perhaps - it’s no sin and doesn’t affect that person’s salvation.

**If **the person is on his or her way to salvation…

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

You seem to think that everyone is on their way to Heaven *unless *they commit a mortal sin.

I didn’t say that, but tell me: if a person dies with only venial sins on his or her soul, are you condemning them to eternal fire? I’d say that those, Catholic or otherwise, are on their way to Glory, with a stopover in Purgatory.

A person who *avoids *learning enough about the Church’s position on a certain sin and then assumes that God will forgive him for committing that sin due to lack of full knowledge is trying to deceive God

Could be, but you’ve just introduced the factor of a person who fully knows the Church’s position, but chooses to act as though he or she doesn’t. It’s called presumption.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

So, altho I like the programs, and the document you linked to, one thing I don’t see is the importance of prayer–prayer for those still outside the Church and prayer for the program. And I believe that the Church should be emphasizing the importance of prayer in these situations.

The fact that I say that people who, say, use abc are committing a mortal sin should not be taken to mean that I am saying that I know Mrs Doe (who uses abc) is on her way to Hell. But knowing that using abc is a mortal sin which objectively leads to Hell should inspire all of us to pray more for people in that situation, and should remind each of us to consider the state of *our own *souls… we may not use abc, but what about our doing ______? or not doing ______?

You seem to be hung up on the Bishops not specifically asking for prayers for the program…are we not always supposed to pray for our separated brethren? Like praying for people in purgatory…you don’t need to know them and you don’t need to be reminded of them. Irregardless our parish does pray for the CCH class…but we also allow participants complete anonymity…it’s up to them if they want to say that they are in the program or not…it creates a safe space for them. We pray in general for the CCH program.

BTW…the use of abc is a serious sin but may not always be a mortal sin…just a clarification.

 

[St_Francis]

I didn’t say that,

And I did not say you said that. I said that you *seem *to be saying that.

but tell me: if a person dies with only venial sins on his or her soul, are you condemning them to eternal fire?
I have repeatedly stated that the only One who judges is Christ Himself. It is not I or any other person who condemns anyone to anything. *Stating Church teaching is not condemning people, *it is merely stating what Christ said about how He will judge. It is supposed to inform us so that we will be better able to attain salvation and help others to do the same.

Without cooperating with God’s grace, a person cannot avoid committing and being guilty of mortal sin. Christ would not condemn a person to Hell for missing Mass if there were no Mass to attend, but He would condemn a person who had received Baptism and grown up in His Church who then rejected His Church by leaving, whether by a deliberate act of departure, or a gradual drifting away.

Christ is not a wimpy pushover: He is all-merciful, yes, but He is also all-just.

I’d say that those, Catholic or otherwise, are on their way to Glory, with a stopover in Purgatory.

Those with only venial sin on their souls are indeed on their way to Heaven with a stopover at Purgatory–which is painful enough that anyone should endeavor not only to avoid it for themselves but to pray for others to be able to avoid it and to pray for the Holy Souls. It’s not like a “stopover in Purgatory” is a piece of cake.

However, the “Catholic or otherwise” part of your response is problematical. It’s hard enough for Catholics to attain Heaven, and they have the grace imparted from the sacraments as well as access to all the knowledge of the Church to help them. Those who are not visibly incorporated into the Church in this world are going to have a *much tougher *time. It is not like they cannot lose any approach to salvation they may manage just in course of living the rest of their lives.

The spiritual path of a person who leaves the Church doesn’t end there. It *might possibly could be *that he would not be judged fully guilty of the act of leaving; however, what about all the other acts he commits during the course of his life outside the Church? Christ will judge him for those acts as well.

 

[St_Francis]

I didn’t say that, but tell me: if a person dies with only venial sins on his or her soul, are you condemning them to eternal fire? I’d say that those, Catholic or otherwise, are on their way to Glory, with a stopover in Purgatory.

Could be, but you’ve just introduced the factor of a person who fully knows the Church’s position, but chooses to act as though he or she doesn’t. It’s called presumption.

You seem to be hung up on the Bishops not specifically asking for prayers for the program…are we not always supposed to pray for our separated brethren? Like praying for people in purgatory…you don’t need to know them and you don’t need to be reminded of them. Irregardless our parish does pray for the CCH class…but we also allow participants complete anonymity…it’s up to them if they want to say that they are in the program or not…it creates a safe space for them. We pray in general for the CCH program.

BTW…the use of abc is a serious sin but may not always be a mortal sin…just a clarification.

I think I was very clear in my posts what I was saying. What you are asking me or telling me is about little bits of my post and the answers to your questions are in the post already.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I think I was very clear in my posts what I was saying.

Apparently not.

 

[St_Francis]

Apparently not.

I don’t know how I could put things more clearly, unless I repeat every single point every time I write something related to it.

I didn’t say that,

I didn’t say you did:

You *seem *to think that everyone is on their way to Heaven unless they commit a mortal sin.

but tell me: if a person dies with only venial sins on his or her soul, are you condemning them to eternal fire?

will be *judged by Christ *

Could be, but you’ve just introduced the factor of a person who fully knows the Church’s position, but chooses to act as though he or she doesn’t. It’s called presumption.

but one can also become excessively *presumptive, *thinking that Christ will forgive all…

 

[St_Francis]

Apparently not.

I don’t know how I could put things more clearly, unless I repeat every single point every time I write something related to it.

I didn’t say that,

I didn’t say you did:

You ***seem ***to think that everyone is on their way to Heaven unless they commit a mortal sin.

but tell me: if a person dies with only venial sins on his or her soul, are you condemning them to eternal fire?

Why would you ask, since I wrote:

will be judged by Christ

Could be, but you’ve just introduced the factor of a person who fully knows the Church’s position, but chooses to act as though he or she doesn’t. It’s called presumption.

I thought you might be able to carry a thought from one paragraph to the next.

but one can also become excessively presumptive, thinking that Christ will forgive all…

 

[St_Francis]

Anyway, it’s been good, but it’s time for me to head on out… Thanks for the challenging questions.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I thought you might be able to carry a thought from one paragraph to the next.

Maybe not, but, given your insult, I can and will ignore anything and everything you post to the Forum from now on.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Maybe not, but, given your insult, I can and will ignore anything and everything you post to the Forum from now on.

And here I was going to try to be nice to her on her reply to me but couldn’t come up with a tactful way to do so I didn’t say anything…

I had the same problem you did…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I now have one foot and eight toes out the door.

When I say the Church is out of touch, I do not mean what the pro-abortion, we-need-womenpriets crowd. But I lack the heart to go into it.

The clubbishness, the condescension, the service to communism, all of those were also factors.

I’d mention the two toes still clinging, but can’t see that I would be understood.

 

[St_Francis]

I now have one foot and eight toes out the door.

When I say the Church is out of touch, I do not mean what the pro-abortion, we-need-womenpriets crowd. But I lack the heart to go into it.

The clubbishness, the condescension, the service to communism, all of those were also factors.

I’d mention the two toes still clinging, but can’t see that I would be understood.

I have been fortunate in that when I returned I had small children and it is only recently that I have been less distracted when at church. But I am sad to find out that there are people in our church who are as you describe. And our last parish–umph! I still shudder when I think of some of the goings-on!

But the result of my situation was, I think, very helpful to me, because it allowed me to consentrate not on the church but on Christ. To sort of narrow my focus if I had to go to my old parish, for example, and even in my new parish to keep my eyes on the Crucifix (something I have been trying to do since I figured out that the priest is not supposed to be the center of attention). And if things bother me, I think about Christ, broken on the Cross.

I will pray for you. I know it’s really hard in some places.

 

[rainbow1]

Well said. I’m a convert, and I’ve known many “reverts.” Every Catholic rejoices when one of the lost sheep are found or find their way home. We love and pray for them, when they are away. That said, we DON’T confirm them in their error with false ecumenism.

I wasn’t talking about false ecumenism…I was saying to love them with Christ’s Love, without judgement, and leave the rest to Christ. It is not a confirmation of anyone’s errors, it is a confirmation of the dignity of all people’s lives. This is true ecumenism…

 

[rainbow1]

I now have one foot and eight toes out the door.

When I say the Church is out of touch, I do not mean what the pro-abortion, we-need-womenpriets crowd. But I lack the heart to go into it.

The clubbishness, the condescension, the service to communism, all of those were also factors.

I’d mention the two toes still clinging, but can’t see that I would be understood.

Yes, it can be really discouraging…but this is how humans across the board tend to be anyplace… I try to remind myself when I am discouraged about it, that the Church truly needs people with compassion, humility and a sense of the dignity of all lives…

 

[Big_Chris]

The clubbishness, the condescension, the service to communism, all of those were also factors.

Could you explain what you mean by these? Feel free to PM if you like if you don’t want others to comment or try to convince you otherwise.

Like you, I have all but a couple of toes still clinging.

I am thinking of becoming Orthodox. Less scandal, it seems.

 

[Et_Cetera]

I didn’t read through this whole thread. Do you really want people who have left to give their reasons? I will write a serious, thoughtful post on this subject if I have the guarantee that others will be charitable about it.

 

[Big_Chris]

I didn’t read through this whole thread. Do you really want people who have left to give their reasons? I will write a serious, thoughtful post on this subject if I have the guarantee that others will be charitable about it.

I will be charitable.

 

[Et_Cetera]

I will be charitable.

Okay, I will try to explain this as best as I can.

I was raised in a Catholic background, went to Catholic grade school and high school (actually really liked the schools, but not for religious reasons), and when I was about sixteen I started to feel as though I really didn’t agree with the ideals of the Church. I began to do more research, and grew farther from the Church.

I personally feel that organized religion puts too much emphasis on “little rules” and detracts from the big picture of someone’s overall morality. I think that too many of the rules are derived from antiquity. For example, not eating meat on Fridays during Lent doesn’t have the same meaning in today’s world, as meat is no longer scarce. In college, a priest chided someone for ordering red meat at a restaurant, where the priest ordered fish. The fish was much more expensive than the red meat dish (guess it wasn’t a filet).

I am very concerned with morality, and I feel that humans of sound mind are able to look at particular life circumstances and determine the proper course of action. I think that too often organized religion gives someone a standard of action that doesn’t account for individual circumstance.

Moving on, I don’t agree with the Church in regard to homosexuality, birth control, sex before marriage, and other little issues that probably just aren’t coming to mind right now. I think that humans can practice homosexuality, use birth control, and have sex before marriage and still be good people. I think that these things can all be done morally, and the reasons that the Church has given for being against these particular actions have never been sufficiently convincing for me. Many rules of the Church seem to be outdated, if I’m honest. I think the leaders need to embrace the luxury of modern science more than they do.

The members themselves have also definitely pushed me away. From personal experience, many of them are hypocritical, and I believe that without the structure of organized religion I can avoid much of the drama of church-going and still be a good person. Honestly, I’m not even quite sure of what kind of higher power I believe in, but if he’s omnipotent, benevolent, and forgiving, then I think he must be more concerned with how we act toward others, than whether or not we sit in the pews for an hour on Sunday, often just letting our minds drift. On these forums alone, I see a lot of authoritative, holier-than-thou people, and it’s a real turn off. “Religious arrogance” might be a better term.

I think that more money and time could be spent on helping the poor, with fewer resources going to church upkeep and the like. Instead of spending time going to mass, what if people instead spent an hour every week volunteering at a soup kitchen or in some way helping another? In my mind, a loving higher power would be more pleased (or just as pleased) with someone working hard to ease another’s pain.

Furthermore, I really dislike how much the Church intertwines with politics, particularly in regard to its ties with the Republican Party. Because the GOP is “pro-life” I feel that many people think that they must not only be “pro-life,” but that they must also be staunch GOP supporters. In regard to the poor, I believe that the Democrats are more sympathetic and have policies that are more helpful to the plight of the underprivileged. The Republican ties (which run very deep on this forum) make me wary. I’ve seen logic go out the window so that people can remain faithful to right. Both parties have their good and bad people, policies, etc., and I wish that there could be more acknowledgment of that. I think I’ve been seeing a bit of greediness sneak its way into this religion, by way of the GOP. There seems to be this overwhelming idea that we are all starting from a level playing field and that if everyone puts in the same amount of work, then he or she can achieve the same level of success as someone who was born into a privileged family. There seems to be a lack of empathy for poor and minority groups, and I think that stems from the GOP, which has made its way to Catholicism through the party’s “pro-life” stance.

My overall moral philosophy is to try to never hurt others on purpose and to help others when I can. I’m not saying that I always achieve these goals, but I think it’s a nice pathway to being a good person.

I’m not trying to put down the religious, as I know many good Catholics, both in real life and on this forum, but personally I feel that I can be a good person without strictly adhering to an organized religion. I’m taking a gamble by posting this, I know. I hope that others will respect my opinions. As good human beings, I think that we should be able to discuss differences of opinion, but I do fear that I might have said too much. I hope that I won’t be kicked out for this.