Tis_Bearself
Patron
No, he’s very much in touch with his base, most of whom can read Latin and follow Latin at the Mass just fine.
- Status
1
1Lord1Faith
Guest
Then he must not be addressing his base in this rant.
A
AngelusDomini
Guest
No, I personally do not have a problem following it as I use a missal. However, without a missal it’s quite another thing. My point, obviously lost, was that it is not the Latin of classic use.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Your point seemed to be more that people who studied classical Latin somehow couldn’t follow “church Latin” because “church Latin” was some unintelligible dialect to them, which is simply not true.
F
Finn
Guest
Better to speak just for yourself, rather than 99% of Catholics, surely? Less hubris.
The benefits of learning Latin are many & varied and have little to do with it being a ‘dead’ language - although there is benefit attached to that aspect, also.
1
13pollitos
Guest
This is an interesting point that is rarely thought about. I have always found it interesting that the kyrie remained in Greek yet everything else was Latin. It’s been so many years now that there is a lot of confusion about these issues. I know priests that have stated on the altar that they were introducing Latin back into the Masses they say because Jesus spoke Latin, and then go on to say the kyrie is Latin. I do not believe that they intentionally mislead, it’s just been so long that many priests never attended a Latin Mass because they weren’t born yet. Usually they are very Holy priests trying their best to live their vocation to the fullest and also trying to reclaim our Church from crisis. It’s just sad that there is so much misinformation and confusing beliefs out there.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
This is true. I didn’t take 4 years of Latin with the goal of reading Church documents, I did it because my parents felt it would give me a good grounding in a lot of areas for college, and it did. Learning Latin helps you better understand a lot of English words, helps you understand a lot of legal, medical and clerical terminology, and gives you a good basis for learning Romance languages. As taught in school it also exposes you to Roman history and culture, which is an interesting subject and relates to Jesus’ time. I haven’t regretted taking it.
H
HumbleIOughtToBe
Guest
DCC Lecture Series | George Weigel
I include closed caption as CC is faster to read than it is to watch part of a video. I also guess every YouTube Video inevitably gets deleted over many many (100s ?) of years, thus their is a record to make sense of.
This is a devils advocate to the main post. I should first mention that I have nothing against formal Latin Mass. I have attended a specific church, that shall remain nameless, that does some extra things with the liturgy to the point that I make jokes about running a 5K to the Cathedral. I don’t go to Latin mass due to Logistics, but not much else. I do not attack a high ranking Priest who has experience I do not, who has studied more than I, and much much more.
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Hmmm. Policy wonk vs. Internet-famous priest. I prefer the priest.
It will be a cold day you-know-where before I listen to ANY policy wonk who is not ordained or in a religious order, on a religious matter. I don’t care how many degrees he has or how many honors he got from the Pope.
It will be a cold day you-know-where before I listen to ANY policy wonk who is not ordained or in a religious order, on a religious matter. I don’t care how many degrees he has or how many honors he got from the Pope.
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’ll leave all that deep thought to you. The subject doesn’t really interest me.
I think the EF is fine, I think the OF is fine though I’d prefer they quit monkeying around with the words to the prayers and what gestures we’re supposed to do and just leave it be. I like Latin, but I’m okay with Mass in the vernacular. I met enough policy wonks in DC, I never want to see another one. Fr. Z writes some good columns and some bad columns. With that, I will take my leave of this thread.
I think the EF is fine, I think the OF is fine though I’d prefer they quit monkeying around with the words to the prayers and what gestures we’re supposed to do and just leave it be. I like Latin, but I’m okay with Mass in the vernacular. I met enough policy wonks in DC, I never want to see another one. Fr. Z writes some good columns and some bad columns. With that, I will take my leave of this thread.
P
Peeps
Guest
I think that if a child/teen has the opportunity to learn Latin in school, then they should go for it–if they can fit it into their schedule.
My daughters attended a Country Day School where Latin was not only offered, but the students participated in world-wide Latin competitions in which they took a lengthy written test, were required to write a short paper on a topic announced on the exam, and also to engage in dialogue. I’m proud that many of the students from the school earn top scores on this exam.
That being said, my daughters chose to take French instead of Latin because at that time, it was the international language of business, and because it is usually used at international sports competitions along with the vernacular of the country in which the event is held.
Earlier this week, I played for a spring concert at the school’s Fine Arts Week, and I heard one of the teachers recite a lengthy monologue in Latin (it lasted around ten minutes, and he did it from memory, not from a crib sheet).
Latin ss still being taught, but you have to pay for it nowadays (private school). There is a private Catholic school in our city where Latin is taught from Kindergarten through 12th grade, and it is required. (IT’s a “traditional” Catholic school affiliated with our Latin Mass parish.)
I believe the requirement for a foreign language has been dropped by many colleges. Also, doctors don’'t use Latin. And if they come across a medical term that they don’t know, they can google it.
I think that the kind of time necessary to truly learn Latin well enough to read, speak,and understand it as those school students do is very rare among working adults. I’m pretty certain that Latin is a three day a week class, along with s a couple of hours a week of homework. Not many adults can carve out five hours a week for FOUR years to study a language. (Many of the students at that school spend more time than this doing their Latin homework, especially if they are entered in the competition.)
Also, the Latin is taught in a classroom setting with other students and a live teacher. I think this is ideal for learning a language (although ideally, one should study the language by spending time in the country that speaks that language–not possible with Latin!). Again, it is rare for adults to have the opportunity to spend a couple of hours a week in with others who are studying Latin.
Again, if you are determined to learn Latin and can carve out the time (perhaps by listening to tapes or something while doing your workouts), that’s great. But I think it’s unrealistic of Father Z to expect many Catholics or adults of any religion to devote their time to learning it.
My daughters attended a Country Day School where Latin was not only offered, but the students participated in world-wide Latin competitions in which they took a lengthy written test, were required to write a short paper on a topic announced on the exam, and also to engage in dialogue. I’m proud that many of the students from the school earn top scores on this exam.
That being said, my daughters chose to take French instead of Latin because at that time, it was the international language of business, and because it is usually used at international sports competitions along with the vernacular of the country in which the event is held.
Earlier this week, I played for a spring concert at the school’s Fine Arts Week, and I heard one of the teachers recite a lengthy monologue in Latin (it lasted around ten minutes, and he did it from memory, not from a crib sheet).
Latin ss still being taught, but you have to pay for it nowadays (private school). There is a private Catholic school in our city where Latin is taught from Kindergarten through 12th grade, and it is required. (IT’s a “traditional” Catholic school affiliated with our Latin Mass parish.)
I believe the requirement for a foreign language has been dropped by many colleges. Also, doctors don’'t use Latin. And if they come across a medical term that they don’t know, they can google it.
I think that the kind of time necessary to truly learn Latin well enough to read, speak,and understand it as those school students do is very rare among working adults. I’m pretty certain that Latin is a three day a week class, along with s a couple of hours a week of homework. Not many adults can carve out five hours a week for FOUR years to study a language. (Many of the students at that school spend more time than this doing their Latin homework, especially if they are entered in the competition.)
Also, the Latin is taught in a classroom setting with other students and a live teacher. I think this is ideal for learning a language (although ideally, one should study the language by spending time in the country that speaks that language–not possible with Latin!). Again, it is rare for adults to have the opportunity to spend a couple of hours a week in with others who are studying Latin.
Again, if you are determined to learn Latin and can carve out the time (perhaps by listening to tapes or something while doing your workouts), that’s great. But I think it’s unrealistic of Father Z to expect many Catholics or adults of any religion to devote their time to learning it.
Last edited:
F
Fuerza
Guest
To your last point, I don’t believe it to be unrealistic at all to expect Catholics to learn Latin. He actually never calls for the laity to be fluent, only to gain a basic understanding of the language. He typically only gets on other clergy to master the language, as they are actually required to do under canon law, and laments the fact that most ignore this training in seminary. There are ample resources for adults outside of a school setting to learn the basics of Latin, many of which are free and can be completed with minimal study. Even spreading an hour of study over the course of the week can yield enough familiarity to follow the basic prayers of the Mass in just a few weeks. Really, Latin is not that hard. Actually no language really is if you use the correct study method, and living in a foreign country is awesome, but not even moderately necessary (most hyperpolyglots learn languages without leaving their homes).
C
CapitalistCatholic
Guest
I don’t get all the hate for the good priest. In a way, he has a point. Whenever someone mentions the need to “Return to Tradition”, there’s plenty of backlash. I can kinda understand why people push back. They don’t see the need in changing the entire Church to fit the needs of the few Catholics who aren’t spiritually satisfied, but at the same time, mainstream bishops and diocesan leaders aren’t really that friendly toward Latin Mass communities. They’re very hard to find, even in America where the “Return to Tradition” movement is at its strongest. No matter what, we’re all Catholic, and we all have a place in the Church.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Kind of like saying senator is English.
1
13pollitos
Guest
Let’s be honest here. Not everyone easily picks up languages. Some people learn them quickly, others can barely learn basic phrases even after living in a new country for decades. It’s kind of unfair to say that no languages are that hard with the correct method of learning. If that were true, no one would have poor grammar in their first and only language. Some people just aren’t language learners while others are.
We raised our kids in a trilingual home. None of them to this point anyway speak 3 languages. All mastered English, some Spanish, and a one knows my husband’s indigenous language. The two babies we will see about. My husband is so far the only one in our family that is fluent in all 3 languages.
We raised our kids in a trilingual home. None of them to this point anyway speak 3 languages. All mastered English, some Spanish, and a one knows my husband’s indigenous language. The two babies we will see about. My husband is so far the only one in our family that is fluent in all 3 languages.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Enjoy…
F
Fuerza
Guest
It may be an interesting point, but it’s not entirely accurate. The Schism did not result from the use of the Latin language, but rather the inability (or unwillingness) of the Greek Church to understand that the Latin “procedit” does not carry the exact same meaning as the Greek “ekporeuomenon”. Procedit is actually equal to the Greek “proienai”, but Latin only has one word for proceeds, not two. There was no problem with this until the term “filioque” was added in the Western Church to combat the Arian heresy by emphasizing the divinity of the Holy Spirit. The Greeks, not being fluent in Latin and not understanding its syntactical differences, assumed that the Latins were implying that the Spirit was somehow created by the Father. The Greek “ekporeuomenon” carries the implied meaning of origin, while the Latin does not. The Latins tried to explain this, but it fell on deaf ears. Even to this day, when the Mass is conducted in Greek the filioque is not included for this reason.
As for your comment about the priest’s saying that Jesus spoke Latin, I cant’s say what he was thinking, but I doubt there are many who actually believe this. The concept of traditionalists who believe that Jesus carried out his ministry and everyday life in Latin is more of a caricature devised by non-traditionalists to mock us. I don’t know anyone personally who believes that Latin was the main language of Jesus or the first Christians. The argument for Latin has nothing to do with which language was first. As far as saying that the Kyrie is Latin, it is indeed possible that he was mistaken or simply had a slip of the tongue. However, even those who know it’s Greek often refer to it this way when they speak of the “Latin Ordinary”. Saying, “Latin Ordinary with a Greek Kyrie” gets tiring.
As for your comment about the priest’s saying that Jesus spoke Latin, I cant’s say what he was thinking, but I doubt there are many who actually believe this. The concept of traditionalists who believe that Jesus carried out his ministry and everyday life in Latin is more of a caricature devised by non-traditionalists to mock us. I don’t know anyone personally who believes that Latin was the main language of Jesus or the first Christians. The argument for Latin has nothing to do with which language was first. As far as saying that the Kyrie is Latin, it is indeed possible that he was mistaken or simply had a slip of the tongue. However, even those who know it’s Greek often refer to it this way when they speak of the “Latin Ordinary”. Saying, “Latin Ordinary with a Greek Kyrie” gets tiring.
1
13pollitos
Guest
There have actually been three priests mention this. I only spoke to one about it. He insists that Jesus did indeed speak Latin. He bases this on The Passion of the Christ. There is no doubt in his mind. He also insists that the kyrie is Latin and the reason the Church favors Latin is that it is the language Jesus spoke. What can a parishioner do except say, “OK Father” and leave it at that? Contacting a bishop goes nowhere. So that’s what we as parishioners did. He is a good man who truly wants the Church to overcome this scandal. He’s just misguided. I never did talk to the other two priests so I don’t know their line of thinking.
T
twf
Guest
No, he is very much a secular priest. He belongs to an Italian Diocese, but lives in Wisconsin (though he seems to travel a lot based on his blog).
- Status