Latin and You. Wherein Fr. Z Rants

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I understand many more than a few words of Latin but it is definitely not “my language” and I am not a speaker of Latin. Knowing words and phrases is very different than knowing a language.
 
That’s a problem in the way they teach Latin. They teach only translations, not writing or speaking it. IMO translations are so boring.
 
Not according to the first writing from Justin Martyr
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to ge’noito [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.
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Jim
 
Why would you assume the prayers were strictly spoken and not chanted?
Chant is universal to all ancient Christian traditions. For our Eastern and Oriental brethren the very notion of a spoken, rather than chanted Liturgy, is unthinkable. Of course their various chant styles are not Gregorian chant.
Jewish Liturgy includes chant as well. It long predates the Church.
 
I also know several phrases in tenek, French and Italian. I don’t “speak” those languages either. It takes much more fluency than just know some or quite a bit to make a language “yours”
 
Because Jews of that time generally spoke the words if prayer in the Temple and Synagogues, not chant as something closer to Gregorian Chant only in Hebrew, That didn’t happen

Jim
 
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Would Fr. Z think we should remove the Hosanna because it his Hebrew, or the Kyrie because it is Greek, from the order of the Mass, and replace it with Latin?
 
Could you please provide a scholarly source? When did Jews begin chanting in Hebrew as they do today?
 
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JimR-OCDS said:
Do you think they sang Gregorian Chant back in the first century of Christianity ?
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Not likely! Gregorian chant didn’t take off until the 10th Century or so. Some forms of plainchant in the Church are a bit older though, such as Ambrosian, Gallican, Mozarabic and Old Roman chant.

Moreover the Gregorian chant that traditionalists are attached to (as I am though I’m a fan of it in the OF), actually is very late, from the 19th century. It’s a reconstruction of what the monks of Solesmes imagined Gregorian chant to be, from original manuscripts. We have no idea what the original actually sounded like. Gregorian chant, by the 19th century had fallen into decadence and decay.

That doesn’t take away from its beauty and appropriateness of the 19th century version in the Western liturgy though. Au contraire!
 
You’re right but even those who speak in several languages feel more comfortable in one or two of them. The Pope understands just a little of English but I’m sure someone else writes speeches for him. Much of Polish I can understand but I have to speak in English to my housecleaner although I make an effort to speak in Polish. I do that to impress her, I’ll admit. 🙂
 
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This is what I could dig up.

Cantillation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Not much is known about how the early versions sounded, from what the article seems to say.

Islam seems to have its own system as well.

In our abbey they use chanted readings (in French), ostensibly to eliminate personal coloration or emphasis of the text.
 
I’m sure though he might object to removing Sabaoth though. I read somewhere no one dared to translate it into Latin. But that didn’t stop the Anglophones.
 
I would think the early Christians must have had some form of chant, as every existing tradition chants the Liturgy… Byzantine, Coptic, Syriac, Chaldean…
 
I agree with 13pollitos.

I have a dismal aptitude for languages. I learned a little German after 4 years of high school classes, but I am far from being fluent. I can understand Hogan’s Heroes.

I’ve posted this before on CAF, but perhaps it bears repeating at the risk of sounding like a harpy. I am a pianist and organist, and over the years, I’ve sung in or accompanied Latin oratorios. I can read the Latin in the music, but if you ask me what it means, even after the conductor carefully explains it all, the explanation goes in one of my ears and out the other. If you asked me that evening what a Latin phrase means, I would have no clue.

Last autumn (2018), our OF parish starting singing the Mass parts in Latin. It is now APRIL 2019, and I STILL CAN"T SING THOSE PARTS without looking at the hymnal!!!

It just doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s like gobbledy-gook.

Of course, I’m also terrible at Wheel of Fortune. EVERY LETTER could be revealed except one; e.g., CATHO_IC ANSWERS–and I STILL can’t the solve that accursed puzzle!!! So frustrating

So after 62 years, I’ve come to the conclusion that the “language learning” and “Fill In The blank” portions of my brain are damaged.

I’m trying to write this in a light-hearted way, but I’m very serious here–I really have a hard time remembering languages, and I know that other people have the same problems. Thankfully, there are plenty of people who pick them up a little easier, and I admire these folks, but I don’t entertain any notions that I can someday be like them. I’ll cheerfully take the brain that I’ve been given and hope it holds out until it’s my time to leave this life.

And I’ll try not to get upset when people like Father Z. make declarations that just aren’t possible for everyone.
 
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twf said:
I would think the early Christians must have had some form of chant, as every existing tradition chants the Liturgy… Byzantine, Coptic, Syriac, Chaldean…
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No doubt, but alas lost in the mists of time. IMHO it doesn’t matter much though. The Church eventually evolved in the direction of plainchant, which was refined over time, and modern hymnology is a distinct break with that evolution.

The 19th century version of Gregorian chant, which continues to be refined by the monks of Solesmes, is probably the ultimate expression of it; the modal nature of chant also survives into several vernacular adaptations, and I believe those vernacular adaptations are legitimate evolution from the base Latin version; I have no objection to modern hymns provided that they are good hymns (not all of them are, but then not all chant is great either, I have a few I can’t stand) and have basis in scripture as chant does. To the extent that the vernacular is now indispensable for most people, these vernacular adaptations strike me as a legitimate means of retaining the tradition, and should thus be encouraged.

Of course doing so requires that we maintain competence in the Latin version. Unfortunately I read many people here ranting about the lack of Gregorian chant in the Mass, yet few step up to the plate and join or form a schola/choir to promote it. I feel strongly enough about it that I did join a schola, and use Gregorian chant daily for the Liturgy of the Hours. It won’t be maintained all by itself!
 
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