Latin and You. Wherein Fr. Z Rants

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Faith and rubrics are two entirely different things. Further, the Church did not start with the Council of Trent; nor did the form of the Mass or its rubrics.

And no one is saying that whatever is considered “pre-Vatican 2” is wrong’ but the bishops of the world clearly said that some things needed to be changed. They clearly felt that some things of value had been lost, and that some things had been added which were no longer of the level of value which they had when instituted.
 
The Mass was not based on theatrics at all. It was based on OT sacrificial ceremonies. A very good book that describes what each part of the Mass represents or means, where it came from and why is Treasures and Traditions by Lisa Bergman. The OF form of the Mass was based on the EF. So if you understand the EF you understand the OF better.
Catholic churches used to be built in the shape of a cross, cruciform shape, which is why seating is not in a circle. Every step the priest took was a reference to the cross. Nothing theatrical.
Seating was also arranged that way because the Church was considered a ship and the body of the ship is the nave or where the parishioners sit would be the same as where passengers sit, which is another reason all faced the same way. All are going in the same direction, toward the cross or towards the East which represents the return of Christ.
 
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Our abbey has a processional crucifix only, and a giant cross on the reredos. You can see them here.

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We must be heretics then compared to you 😉
otjm said:
some things had been added which were no longer of the level of value which they had when instituted
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Consider the method of incensing the altar for example;

www.newliturgicalmovement.org

How to Incense a Freestanding Altar

Sacred liturgy and liturgical arts. Liturgical history and theology. The movements for the Usus Antiquior and Reform of the Reform.
www.newliturgicalmovement.org www.newliturgicalmovement.org

Another example from 1935 (my translation from the French):
"1. There are many kinds of inclinations (bows): profunda, media, infima…
…
2. The deep bow consists of inclining the bust sufficiently so that the dangling hands may touch the knees.
  1. The mediocre bow, or media, is a deep inclination of the head with notable inclination of the shoulders,
  2. The small bow, or infima of the head, is subdivided into three classes: minimarum maxima, minimarum media, minimarum minima. a) The first is a deep inoculation of the head with slight inclination of the shoulders; the second is a noticeable inclination of the head only; c) the third is a slight inclination of the head only.
Which inclination to use… (three more paragraphs and subparagraphs of which to use, when.
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The book is filled with such minutiae on how to celebrate the Mass, the Divine Office and how to decorate the church, etc. This book is living proof of why reform was needed.
 
OraLabora said:
The book is filled with such minutiae on how to celebrate the Mass, the Divine Office and how to decorate the church, etc. This book is living proof of why reform was needed.
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When something is important to people, a good many show their devotion by getting particular about it. Among those who are particular, some get obsessively particular. That’s the nature of how human beings relate to something very important.

If nobody is getting obsessive about reverence, that’s probably not a good sign, either. Such concern that everybody act just so can be a huge pain to deal with, I’m not defending it, but it does show that the general attitude of caring among the faithful has reached those who are prone to getting obsessive.

IMHO, though, is all a matter of degree. The same attention to detail that can come from a free-floating anxiety or fear of making mistakes can also come from joyful devotion.

Latin is a true joy to many of the faithful, so I’m not at all surprised that there is a great devotion to it. When something moves your heart, of course you want to share it! Latin is among the riches of the Church and it belongs to our patrimony. It ought to be preserved and promoted, not neglected or disdained.

Latin should not be treated as if it is the only mark of true devotion to the Lord, or to the Eucharist, or to the Church. It does not deserve that place, and giving it that place leaves those who know Latin vulnerable to spiritual pride and to sowing discord over something that by right ought to be a source of unity. Unity is not something that can be forced. It is something that people need to be lead to seek freely. I think those who love Latin ought to see leading other people as the route to spreading appreciation for it. Forcing it on people can lead to resentment that can prove difficult to wash away later. I don’t think that anything that could be called “ranting” is the way to spread a love of Latin. Instead, it reinforces the impression that people who love Latin are a bit more obsessive than is good for anybody.
 
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I have no objection to Latin or any other language. It is beautiful when sung. What tweaks me is the idolatry of it from some corners.
God does not speak Latin or any other human language. Christ likely spoke Aramaic.

It’s a language. It’s a practical human matter. Keep it in perspective.
 
The brothers and sisters wo are lost in all of this argumentation are those with little or no linguistic skills, the developmentally disabled and others who are able only to understand a limited amount of even their native language.

Is there any thought given to them?
 
po18guy said:
I cannot understand the mania for Latin…
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Well, apart from the history of it–that is, the knowledge that one is praying in the same words as generations of Catholics around the world and across the centuries–Latin is constructed in a way that makes it uniquely suited for poetry. The endings on the nouns and verbs make it possible to put the words in many different orders without changing the meaning of a sentence. That, in turn, allows the emphasis of a sentence to be changed by changing the word order. That’s just an example of how suitable it is as a poetic language. It really is a remarkable language, very powerful.
po18guy said:
The brothers and sisters wo are lost in all of this argumentation are those with little or no linguistic skills, the developmentally disabled and others who are able only to understand a limited amount of even their native language.

Is there any thought given to them?
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There is room in the Church for both wheelchair ramps and marble staircases that show the wear of generations of footfalls. One does not need to preclude the other–nor elevators nor ladders nor anything belonging to the ingenuity of the past or the present.
 
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Both forms of mass have been declared equally valid. The matter is settled.

As to the disabled, I was not speaking of ramps and other physical things.

Spiritual things.

The ability to understand the mass and participate.

What about the least of our brothers and sisters?
 
po18guy said:
Both forms of mass have been declared equally valid. The matter is settled.

As to the disabled, I was not speaking of ramps and other physical things.

Spiritual things.

The ability to understand the mass and participate.

What about the least of our brothers and sisters?
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To be fair to Fr. Z, I haven’t heard him suggest that Mass in the vernacular ought to be abrogated.
There are people in the Church who seem to want the Traditional Latin Mass to be done away with.
That would be more tragic than taking away a venerable marble staircase on the grounds that there is a perfectly usable concrete wheelchair ramp that everyone can use. Let’s hope that no one who is wheelchair-bound would suggest that no one capable of navigating stairs should be allowed to take them. No, there is room for both; that is why both are allowed. Even if you could argue that Latin isn’t needed in the way that vernacular prayers are needed, that is a long ways from saying it isn’t uniquely valuable.

If priests aren’t encouraged to learn Latin while they are still in the seminary, that is like refusing to maintain a historic building. It will fall down out of neglect. Just so, the Traditional Latin Mass will only survive if the means to learn to say it and understand it is available to priests during their formation. That represents a lot of work and time, and without support it isn’t going to be taken up often enough. I don’t think a lower facility with Latin should disqualify a seminarian from being ordained (which Fr. Z seems to suggest) but neither do I think that priests willing and able to learn Latin fluently should want for the resources to do so while they are still in seminary. Without that foundation, it is asking a lot of priests to learn Latin after they are ordained. In that case, only the priests on the educational track to perhaps become bishops would be able to pray it. That would be too bad.
 
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Salibi said:
Can you provide a source for this “example” of yours that Mass was changed to resemble a theatre?
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No, I can’t provide a source. I was asking someone on this board that I respect for their knowledge to comment on a theory and tell me if there is any evidence.

Here is the question that I asked otjm to comment on. I know that they have more knowledge of church history than I do.
Peeps said:
Do you happen to know if there is any historical connection between the development of the “complex rubrics” of the Mass in the 17th-19th centuries and the “secular theater” of that time?
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That’s OK. I’ve gotten some great responses from several historically-wise people!
 
I don’t speak Spanish but the Spanish Mass is easy on the ears. I just remember “gracias” and “la Paz” 🙂

Pronunciations of the responses are relatively easy since there are no silent letters except for “h”.
 
What do you suppose happened in all the 1500 or so years that the Latin rite Church existed and the Mass was in Latin with these brothers and sisters?
 
Early on, it was in Hebrew and Greek.

Riddle me this one: why did the Holy spirit enable the eleven to speak diverse languages?

As to the “Latin mandate” drumbeat, I do not know of a single private revelation - there may be one - in which the Latin mass is specified from heaven. “He who hears you hears Me” is the best counsel that we have.

Either way is OK with me. I just wish that this was not such a divisive and contentious issue.
 
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