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otjm
Guest
Yes, but it probably lasted only a year or two - it was Aramaic.
Then, again, given the activity right around Pentecost, maybe not that long…
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vames
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I said “Imposing now the **exclusive **use of Latin”, as in “Latin only - zero Masses in local languages”, which doesn’t happen anywhere. Of course they don’t consider it to be Eurocentrism, because they can **choose **between Masses in their local languages and Masses in Latin.
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otjm
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Well, the train wreck you are seeing is not perhaps as bad as you makie it out to be; we have a lot of Catholics who attend Mass but whose Catholic education pretty much stopped as of the day after their confirmation.Whenever there is a Spanish Mass at our English parish and I see the absolute train wreck that it is where people are looking around wondering where in the Mass they are at, or the myraid of languages being said where people are confused. Where the priest is struggling with the prayers, homily and Readings…all I can say to myself is.
Whatever happened to the one universal language for the One Universal Church?
Bring back the Latin and Greek so we all can celebrate and worship together as one!
And the inability to tell what was going on in that Spanish Mass is the same thing that was going on in the 1950’s where the parish did not provide missals or missalettes, and for the large portion of people who did not have a missal, they were just as lost.
I have attended Mass in Vietnamese and Spanish, and I never failed to know where we were at any given point; and given that most parishes have an English missalette in the pew, I was able to follow right along. A friend of mine joked that it was just like attending Mass when we were kids; you could not understand Latin, and you can’t understand Spanish or Vietnamese, but you can worship just the same.
I have also attended Mass (or the Divine Liturgy, or Holy Mysteries) in Church Slavonic and in Arabic and Aramaic; and both parishes had a translation of the language in English.
And in every one of those settings, I was united to and with the others who understood and were conversant in something other than English.
For the record I studied Latin in both high school and college, and I still cannot speak it, nor can I read it - I was taught to translate it. I am not against Latin, and I have no problem with parts of the Mass being in Latin (or Greek; I also took Homeric Greek and studied a bit of koinae - John’s Gospel). However, I find it easier to participate in Mass in English, than in all Latin where I have to read along rather than listen.
What unites us is the liturgy, whether it is in Latin, Greek, Spanish, Church Salvonic, Chinese, Vietnamese, Urdu, Swahili or something else. The readings occur at the same point; the Epiclesus, consecration, or whatever part at the same point, never mind the language it is being celebrated in. What unites us is Christ.
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ProVobis
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Maybe but that applies to Protestantism as well.
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Brendan
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And my point is that the bishop I stay with in Tanzania, and most of his flock, would not see a change back to exclusively Latin as ‘Eurocentric’.
Remember that most of sub-Saharan Africa uses European languages as the means of communication between regions.
Tanzania, at least, is standardized on Swahili. But the DR-Congo, Congo and Cameroon use French, because two neighboring villages might have different languages.
A priest I know in Cameroon has to deal with 6 different languages in the parishes he covers. So he says Mass in French mostly. So a switch to Latin would probably be welcome. At least then any visiting priest could assist by saying Mass.
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vames
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It depends on the place. Our parish organizes collects for a mission in Sololo, Kenya, where the Masses are said in English and Swahili, the languages spoken mostly by the cultured folk, while the local tribe speaks Borana, which is much more difficult to learn, according to the parish priest. The missionaries are very close to the locals and do a lot of social work, including schooling of children and teenagers; the hospital, the 2 high schools and the 6 elementary schools of the diocese are places where they celebrate Masses. In such poor places, Latin would be extraterrestrial.
Another example from Kenya:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100638.htm
Eurocentrism isn’t limited to the exclusive use of Latin. Eurocentrism means ignoring not only the local languages (including the European languages traditionally spoken in a place), but also ignoring the “norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples”, as Sacrosanctum Concilium said, and trying to impose a false cultural uniformity defined according to European standards (an example here).
Another example from Kenya:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100638.htm
Eurocentrism isn’t limited to the exclusive use of Latin. Eurocentrism means ignoring not only the local languages (including the European languages traditionally spoken in a place), but also ignoring the “norms for adapting the Liturgy to the culture and traditions of peoples”, as Sacrosanctum Concilium said, and trying to impose a false cultural uniformity defined according to European standards (an example here).
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spankyg
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Latin
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Megan7
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“Hatred for the Latin language is inborn in the hearts of all the enemies of Rome. They recognize it as the bond among Catholics throughout the universe, as the arsenal of orthodoxy against all the subtleties of the sectarian spirit. . . . The spirit of rebellion which drives them to confide the universal prayer to the idiom of each people, of each province, of each century, has for the rest produced its fruits, and the reformed themselves constantly perceive that the Catholic people, in spite of their Latin prayers, relish better and accomplish with more zeal the duties of the cult than most do the Protestant people. At every hour of the day, divine worship takes place in Catholic churches. The faithful Catholic, who assists, leaves his mother tongue at the door. Apart form the sermons, he hears nothing but mysterious words which, even so, are not heard in the most solemn moment of the Canon of the Mass. Nevertheless, this mystery charms him in such a way that he is not jealous of the lot of the Protestant, even though the ear of the latter doesn’t hear a single sound without perceiving its meaning .… . . . We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in ever destroying it, it would be well on the way to victory. Exposed to profane gaze, like a virgin who has been violated, from that moment on the Liturgy has lost much of its sacred character, and very soon people find that it is not worthwhile putting aside one’s work or pleasure in order to go and listen to what is being said in the way one speaks on the marketplace. . . .”
~ Dom Prosper Guéranger
Thank you Pro Vobis for this post, and I think it is UNITIVE. God bless, Pax
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otjm
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Latin what?
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otjm
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I don’t know when all Catholics (and for the sake of keeping out ot our Eastern brethren’s hair, I mean within the Roman rite) knew Latin - and by :knowing" Latin, I don’t mean parroting it back - I mean being able to at lest minimally converse in it; but I would guess that it would be about 5 generations after Rome lost power - or about 100 years after the centurions ceased to march through the local villages.
I am a lousy historian, but that puts it back where - the Dark Ages?
For the last 100 years prior to Vatican 2, the great - no, the vast - majority of people could not speak Latin. A goodly number of them could parrot Latin, but that is not “knowing” it.
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otjm
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Dom Prosper Gueranger: born 1805; died 1875.“Hatred for the Latin language is inborn in the hearts of all the enemies of Rome. They recognize it as the bond among Catholics throughout the universe, as the arsenal of orthodoxy against all the subtleties of the sectarian spirit. . . . The spirit of rebellion which drives them to confide the universal prayer to the idiom of each people, of each province, of each century, has for the rest produced its fruits, and the reformed themselves constantly perceive that the Catholic people, in spite of their Latin prayers, relish better and accomplish with more zeal the duties of the cult than most do the Protestant people. At every hour of the day, divine worship takes place in Catholic churches. The faithful Catholic, who assists, leaves his mother tongue at the door. Apart form the sermons, he hears nothing but mysterious words which, even so, are not heard in the most solemn moment of the Canon of the Mass. Nevertheless, this mystery charms him in such a way that he is not jealous of the lot of the Protestant, even though the ear of the latter doesn’t hear a single sound without perceiving its meaning .… . . . We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in ever destroying it, it would be well on the way to victory. Exposed to profane gaze, like a virgin who has been violated, from that moment on the Liturgy has lost much of its sacred character, and very soon people find that it is not worthwhile putting aside one’s work or pleasure in order to go and listen to what is being said in the way one speaks on the marketplace. . . .”
~ Dom Prosper Guéranger
Thank you Pro Vobis for this post, and I think it is UNITIVE. God bless, Pax
However, the bishops from around the entire world decided they wanted vernacular in the liturgy, and that was almost 85 years after his death. I will immediately grant they did not express vernacular only; but they wanted vernacular.
What we have are two parallel conversations going, it would appear; one wanting the Mass in Latin; the other wanting some of the prayers which we recite together, to be in Latin.
There is a vast difference between the two issues.
The OP’s question is :would Latin in the Mass be devisive? Unitive?
There is a bit of difference between Latin in the Mass, and the Mass in Latin.
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choliks
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LOL! I’m beginning to see why Latin is divisive. Just look how polarized the thread has become. 
in all seriousness… The opinions expressed on this thread just proved my point in post #28. 
in all seriousness… The opinions expressed on this thread just proved my point in post #28.
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Baelor
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Latin should be unitive, but unfortunately many Catholics have little sense of their history.
Charges of Eurcentrism are misplaced. We cannot alter the past. Those saying that the promotion of Latin is Eurocentric make no sense. It is merely expediency and history that drive the choice. Those that rail against Latin may as well rail against the Bible for having been written in Aramaic, or Jesus for having been born in Bethlehem.
Charges of Eurcentrism are misplaced. We cannot alter the past. Those saying that the promotion of Latin is Eurocentric make no sense. It is merely expediency and history that drive the choice. Those that rail against Latin may as well rail against the Bible for having been written in Aramaic, or Jesus for having been born in Bethlehem.
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TimSpalding
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This isn’t much of an argument and to the extent it is it depends upon facts you get wrong. You can’t criticize Catholics for having “little sense of their history” and then claim the Bible was written in Aramaic. It was not. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Old Testament is about 99% Hebrew, with only a few passages in Daniel and some quoted documents in Ezra in Aramaic.
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Baelor
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For the sake of posterity, I will refrain from editing my post. I had read another post mentioning Aramaic and I made a typo (in addition, I never meant to suggest the Bible was written in a single language).
That being said, you of course realize how trivial it is to respond to your legitimate challenge:
Latin should be unitive, but unfortunately many Catholics have little sense of their history.
Charges of Eurcentrism are misplaced. We cannot alter the past. Those saying that the promotion of Latin is Eurocentric make no sense. It is merely expediency and history that drive the choice. Those that rail against Latin may as well rail against the Bible for having been written partly in Hebrew, or Jesus for having been born in Bethlehem.
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CutlerB
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Absolutely, it is unitive!
Just like English is the Lingua Franca in the world, Latin can be in the Liturgy. Apart from all the theology and other aspects behind its use there, of course.
Now, we have German Mass, Polish Mass, Kroatian Mass, every language one could think of, and you need to choose which one to go to, if you want to understand. All of that could be eliminated if Latin got back to its former place: You’d have to learn only a bit of one language (and really, it’s not that difficult). Those parts of the Mass that stay the same (Words of Consecration, etc.) won’t pose any problems, since firstly, everyone knows what’s going on there anyway, and secondly, they are not that much to read.
Latin even used to be the language of universities across Europe, you could go to any country and study at any university: All would share one language.
Just like English is the Lingua Franca in the world, Latin can be in the Liturgy. Apart from all the theology and other aspects behind its use there, of course.
Now, we have German Mass, Polish Mass, Kroatian Mass, every language one could think of, and you need to choose which one to go to, if you want to understand. All of that could be eliminated if Latin got back to its former place: You’d have to learn only a bit of one language (and really, it’s not that difficult). Those parts of the Mass that stay the same (Words of Consecration, etc.) won’t pose any problems, since firstly, everyone knows what’s going on there anyway, and secondly, they are not that much to read.
Latin even used to be the language of universities across Europe, you could go to any country and study at any university: All would share one language.
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acarlson
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I see it as both, just from my own experiences . . .
It can be divisive among monolingual communities when only certain groups understand what is being said. I’m a relatively new Catholic (going on 6 years), so I understand how out of place I feel/felt when I don’t know how to say a certain prayer/chant in Latin – especially among the vibrant Catholic young adult community in Denver. In a way, I can see the use of Latin and Greek leaving many feeling as if they aren’t “Catholic enough” to be a part of that community.
But it can also be massively unitive when crossing language barriers, either at home or in another country. When I studied abroad in Paris, I had no idea what to say in French at Mass for the first few weeks (I’m fluent in French, so that barrier was absent). Yet that awkwardness fell away when we all spoke/sang in Latin or Greek. It truly made me feel the universality of the Church and how it spans beyond all human barriers like language and citizenship.
It can be divisive among monolingual communities when only certain groups understand what is being said. I’m a relatively new Catholic (going on 6 years), so I understand how out of place I feel/felt when I don’t know how to say a certain prayer/chant in Latin – especially among the vibrant Catholic young adult community in Denver. In a way, I can see the use of Latin and Greek leaving many feeling as if they aren’t “Catholic enough” to be a part of that community.
But it can also be massively unitive when crossing language barriers, either at home or in another country. When I studied abroad in Paris, I had no idea what to say in French at Mass for the first few weeks (I’m fluent in French, so that barrier was absent). Yet that awkwardness fell away when we all spoke/sang in Latin or Greek. It truly made me feel the universality of the Church and how it spans beyond all human barriers like language and citizenship.
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Cat
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ProVobis, this is a dreadful quote to post out of context, without telling anyone who the author is or what the circumstances were! I didn’t report you over this, but I thought about it. If it were anyone else that I didn’t know, I would have hit the report button.
So now I’m an “enemy of Rome”. And I’m not a “faithful Catholic” because I don’t “leave my native language at the door.” Thank a whole lot!
No wonder Catholics quit the Church! If someone said this to me in person, I would be pretty devastated. In fact, I’m devastated now, although I know enough to know not to believe everything I read that sounds Catholic.
This is why we need to listen to our own bishops and priests. .
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Phemie
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Discovered that recently when I did a walking tour of the Paris Latin Quarter. I was surprised to learn that the name doesn’t come from music or ethnicity of the residents but because it’s where the universities are and where the ‘vernacular’ was Latin until about a century ago.
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