Latin mass.. to be celebrated in all parishes

[KathleenElsie]

rcn:

The indult regarding the TLM says that it can be made available to those who request it.

Most parishes do not have even a single person who still remembers the TLM, much less would want to have it in their parish.

So you are saying it should be crammed down everyone’s throat, whether they want it or not?

Sorry had to answer this one.
When you go to a TLM there are “old” adults (50+), mid-adults (30-40s), young adults (18+) and every age under 18 years down to days old.
As to remembering the TLM I had someone tell me that their “soul” remembered the TLM and it sang when they attended the first time. I thought that was a wonderful feeling.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

viktor aleksndr:

i hope that the latin mass be celebrated at least once a week in all parishes around the world… what do you think?

I don’t think the demand would be there in many parishes. We have six Sunday Masses at my parish and I could see the Tridentine Mass receiving very few people.

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

I don’t think the demand would be there in many parishes. We have six Sunday Masses at my parish and I could see the Tridentine Mass receiving very few people.

I would have to agree with you. However, how about an EWTN type Holy Mass offered at every parish?? Bet they would be filled. WITH the Latin and Greek.

As for a priest learning the TLM, our 37 year old pastor learned it in three weeks. Now he is one of three priests that offer it in our ArchDiocese.

 

[lyoncoeur]

viktor aleksndr:

i hope that the latin mass be celebrated at least once a week in all parishes around the world… what do you think?

From the original posters statement, he makes no mention of the TLM, only the Latin Mass, the NO can and even should be celebrated in Latin.

People keep mentioning that they don’t KNOW Latin, or can’t learn Latin. There are some misconceptions often made with this subject.

Latin is not exclusively used. The homely is in the local language, the scripture readings are usually said in BOTH Latin and vernacular, the Latin parts are mostly the prayers that most people already know or have heard in one way or another in Latin. There would be a learning curve, but if it were still the NO Mass only in Latin, would it really be that hard?

Latin is OUR birthright as Catholics…it’s our language as a people, a church, Just as Hebrew is the Language of the Jews. Most of our prayers were originally penned in Latin and have a much more poetical, even melodic sound when spoken in Latin.

JPII celebrated the NO Mass in Latin, Benedict XVI Celebrates it in Latin {And neither one of them NATIVE Latin Speakers!} Why should your Parish priest not be willing to celebrate the Mass in the language that is universal?

I read a thread last week about a couple that went to Church in Spain…they were confused because they didn’t understand the service in Spanish, they were used to it in English… Now if the use of Latin for the Mass was Mandatory in all parishes {except for the scripture readings and homily} then after people became accustomed to it… then this confusion would mostly end, no matter the parish you go to, when you hear Mass being celebrated the prayers are the same and you can know what is happening and be a participant instead of an onlooker.

Just my opinion on the matter…

 

[lyoncoeur]

KathleenElsie:

their “soul” remembered the TLM and it sang when they attended the first time. I thought that was a wonderful feeling.

That is beautifully put Kathleen… that is the way I felt about it the first time too…

 

[silverwings_88]

I pray for the increase in Latin masses… Then finally will I have a chance to hear our beautiful heritage language one day…

Amen for your wonderful post!

lyoncoeur:

From the original posters statement, he makes no mention of the TLM, only the Latin Mass, the NO can and even should be celebrated in Latin.

People keep mentioning that they don’t KNOW Latin, or can’t learn Latin. There are some misconceptions often made with this subject.

Latin is not exclusively used. The homely is in the local language, the scripture readings are usually said in BOTH Latin and vernacular, the Latin parts are mostly the prayers that most people already know or have heard in one way or another in Latin. There would be a learning curve, but if it were still the NO Mass only in Latin, would it really be that hard?

Latin is OUR birthright as Catholics…it’s our language as a people, a church, Just as Hebrew is the Language of the Jews. Most of our prayers were originally penned in Latin and have a much more poetical, even melodic sound when spoken in Latin.

JPII celebrated the NO Mass in Latin, Benedict XVI Celebrates it in Latin {And neither one of them NATIVE Latin Speakers!} Why should your Parish priest not be willing to celebrate the Mass in the language that is universal?

I read a thread last week about a couple that went to Church in Spain…they were confused because they didn’t understand the service in Spanish, they were used to it in English… Now if the use of Latin for the Mass was Mandatory in all parishes {except for the scripture readings and homily} then after people became accustomed to it… then this confusion would mostly end, no matter the parish you go to, when you hear Mass being celebrated the prayers are the same and you can know what is happening and be a participant instead of an onlooker.

Just my opinion on the matter…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I would have to agree with you. However, how about an EWTN type Holy Mass offered at every parish?? Bet they would be filled. WITH the Latin and Greek.

As for a priest learning the TLM, our 37 year old pastor learned it in three weeks. Now he is one of three priests that offer it in our ArchDiocese.

I think if the Pauline Mass was celebrated at EWTN celebrates it, after awhile our parish would be drawing people from throughout the deanery – which some might find to be problematic. EWTN shows just how gorgeous the Pauline Mass is – it compares quite favorably to the Tridentine Mass.

Still to my own personal preferences, I would change some of what EWTN does, withouth contravening what the Church directs. I would ask that the readings be chanted. I prefer the Lord’s Prayer and the Creed in the vernacular, but that’s just me.

In sum, thank you EWTN!

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

I think if the Pauline Mass was celebrated at EWTN celebrates it, after awhile our parish would be drawing people from throughout the deanery – which some might find to be problematic. EWTN shows just how gorgeous the Pauline Mass is – it compares quite favorably to the Tridentine Mass.

Still to my own personal preferences, I would change some of what EWTN does, withouth contravening what the Church directs. I would ask that the readings be chanted. I prefer the Lord’s Prayer and the Creed in the vernacular, but that’s just me.

In sum, thank you EWTN!

We do the Creed in Latin. I love it.
You are right about people coming to your parish. We have doubled our families in three years. We have grown out of our church with 750 families. We have six Holy Masses on Sundays.

(we call the churches in our area a Vicariate. Is that the same as a deanery?)

 

[Scout]

ByzCath:

If you priest said “no” to the question “could you celebrate a Latin Mass if asked to do so?” does not necessarily mean that he doesn’t know Latin.

It could mean one of two things.

1. He is assuming that you are asking if he could say the Latin Mass if a lay person asked him to, seeing that to say the old Mass requries the approval of the local Bishop.
2. That while he knows Latin, he is not familiar with the old Mass and it would take him time to learn it and he just couldn’t do it right away.

Latin is still taught in the seminaries but it the priest does not use it they will get rusty just as with any other language.

He went to seminary almost 25 years ago. He may have studied it in Seminary, but he doesn’t know Latin now. He would have to go back and re-study it.

Scout :tiphat:

 

[Ignatius]

viktor aleksndr:

i hope that the latin mass be celebrated at least once a week in all parishes around the world… what do you think?

Why not make this a poll so we can all see the cumulative results.

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

tnx for your reply!

i am not really up to the TLM but at least like the EWTN type of mass. Latin in most of the common prayers (pater noster, credo, gloria, Kyrie in greek; just like in EWTN) but english or native language in prayer, etc. prayer of the day, homily, readings etc.

i think EWTN kind of mass will at least make the Latin Catholic Church united. One in language of these common prayers…

 

[Kielbasi]

As for a priest learning the TLM, our 37 year old pastor learned it in three weeks. Now he is one of three priests that offer it in our ArchDiocese.

This priest sounds like a real fast learner, almost a genius. The instructions , rules and rubrics for the Latin mass are quite complex. I’ve seen (although not read them in any detail) and it looks pretty difficult.

Back in the day, it typically took longer than 3 weeks to train young men on how to serve mass , much less actually to say the mass.

 

[otm]

judicame:

Latin, of itself, isn’t used as a vernacular language, so its meaning is set, a bit like ancient arabic or ancient Hebrew. The meaning of the words doesn’t change over time so there is no need to adapt them.

When mass is said in Latin throughout the world, a Catholic can go to mass anywhere and understand and be familiar with the liturgy, and know that literally those same prayers are being offered all over the world and also feel assured that those prayers are literally in communion with saints, martyrs and Catholic faithul through time.

It makes the church whole.

With vernacular you can find the balkanization of mass, sometimes within the same parish, particularly with people moving around more in cosmopolitan areas. Spanish speakers at one mass, English at another, perhaps French at another. When Latin is available, anybody can go anywhere. If they need a translation, all they need is a single hand missal of their choice.

Latin isn’t a hard language (at least the stems ) particularly if you speak French, Spanish, Italian or even English. There are lots of German words, and a bit of Celtic, in English, but mostly it comes from Latin through French. There aren’t that many words in the Ordinary of the mass said every week. Most of them are quite familiar, often from everyday words and phrases.

Problem is that Latin has become a bit of a oddity, an unfamiliar novelty, and to further confusion, the Novus Ordo in Latin is different again from the Traditional Latin Mass.

The same can be said for going to Mass in any language besides one’s own; if one is familiar with the Mass, one will know what is going on at any particualr time whether the foreign language is Latin or something else; the rubrics are essentially the same world wide. The Offeratory comes after the Readings and before the Consecration, etc.

 

[Podo2004]

viktor aleksndr:

i hope that the latin mass be celebrated at least once a week in all parishes around the world… what do you think?

Nah It should be left like it is and have the No. as the norm for each weekend. Besides who says every bishop/priest will want to to say the latin mass if the rules are still the same? I agree with WhiteDove because most people understand the mass better in english( or venacular). I personally feel that mass should always be said in the vernacular so people can understand it( instead of having a book to translate)
Peace,
Podo

 

[Blanka]

It would be an interesting experiment if parishes offered an additional mass in Latin every Sunday for a month and observed the attendance. The priests might be surprised to find that a large segment of people want the Latin mass.

I am convert from 1981 so have never had the privilege of attending a Latin mass.
I would jump at the chance to attend if one was available in my area.

 

[aspergesme]

Yes, it will be a Glorious day when the Mass of All Times is offered in every parish!

As to Latin, it has been and still is the official language of the Church. The excuse that one cannot understand what is going on is simply that, an excuse. I didn’t know Latin from Adam when I started attending a TLM. It doesn’t take long though. And once you’ve gone to a TLM you quickly realize how little the NOM actually resembles the Mass that nutured countless souls and Saints for nearly 2000 years.

As to the Indult. The TLM has never been abrogated and therefore every Priest has the right to offer the Mass without fear of conscience. No Indult requried. HHPJPII ordered that the Bishops provide a “wide and generous application” of the TLM. To date this has not been done. One can only wonder why?

As to the NOM holding up to the TLM? See for yourself.

lumengentleman.com/index.asp?id=18
lumengentleman.com/index.asp?id=15

Ecce Lignum Crucis In Quo Salvs Mundi Pependit

 

[rcn]

aspergesme:

Yes, it will be a Glorious day when the Mass of All Times is offered in every parish!

Not gonna happen.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I have some thoughts on this matter.

Cardinal Arinze said on a recent EWTN interview that the priest does not have the option to use Latin just becuase he wants to. That the people in the pews must know the responses.

Now if the Church was going to mandate that one of the Sunday Masses be done in Latin or that the Old Mass be offered in place of one of the Sunday Masses, what would the attendance be?

There are issues here. The cost for the Church building, maintance, the priest, and other such things. Can a Latin Mass, either current Mass or Old Mass, cover that. The TLM crowd is a minority in the Church, yes it is very vocal, but it is still a minority.

aspergesme:

As to the Indult. The TLM has never been abrogated and therefore every Priest has the right to offer the Mass without fear of conscience. No Indult requried. HHPJPII ordered that the Bishops provide a “wide and generous application” of the TLM. To date this has not been done. One can only wonder why?

Lets look at the word generous.

How can you say that the Idult has not been granted in a generous manner? Those bishops who have not grranted an Indult Mass may have looked at the issues I put above.

If a community can not sustain its self then why should it be subsidized by the diocese? Lets say a diocesean priest wishes to volunteer to celebrate the Indult Mass, what about his other responsibilites? A priest may only celebrate the Mass a certain number of times a day according to Canon Law.

Can. 905 §1 Apart from those cases in which the law allows him to celebrate or concelebrate the Eucharist a number of times on the same day, a priest may not celebrate more than once a day.
§2 If there is a scarcity of priests, the local Ordinary may for a good reason allow priests to celebrate twice in one day or even, if pastoral need requires it, three times on Sundays or holydays of obligation.

So most diocesean priests are full up on Masses on Sundays taking care of the majority of the flock.

As for the Old Mass not being abrogated, thats just more “rad-Trad” nonsense. The Mass was promulgated and when that was done it became the rite of the Latin Church. Indult granted by the Holy Father shows that this is so. As the Holy Father is the supreme legislator of the Church.

And as noted above Cardinal Arinze, who happens to be prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, says that a priest can not choose to say the Mass in Latin, so one would infer that he can not choose to say the Old Mass either, espeically in light of the Indult which gives this decision to the local bishop.

The priest serves the flock, the flock does not conform to the priest.

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Sgt Sweaters:

I TLM.

Every parish? Not realistic.

I must disagree here, Sgt. There is no reason why, with as many people want the TLM, there could not eventually be a TLM in every parish. The Holy Father (JP2 that is) told every bishop to be generous with the “indult” to celebrate the TLM. I say it’s time we stop letting the modernists tell us it’s impossible to have a TLM in every parish, that the TLM is dead, those who like it are stuck in the old days, etc.

We must remember that it was the official Mass of the Church for 1,500 yrs pre-Vatican II. Now it’s treated as some disease.

But if we’re talking about what *every *parish needs, it’s a Perpetual Adoration Chapel.

Amen. And I’d be willing to bet that if the Church went back to the TLM, you would see an explosion in Adoration. On a side note, I think Eucharist Adoration–or the lack of it-- truly exposes the modernists for who they are. They’re people who don’t love Our Lord. When I say modernist, of course, I mean those who promote the “spirit of Vatican II”, which usually differ enormously from the teachings of V2. Anyway, if you notice, it’s always the orthodox, faithful parishes that have Adoration (perpetual). The “liberal” parishes are too busy focusing on how to celebrate themselves to worship our Eucharistic Lord, I suppose.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

UKcatholicGuy:

I must disagree here, Sgt. There is no reason why, with as many people want the TLM, there could not eventually be a TLM in every parish.

This is where we disagree as I said in my last reply.

I have not seen any evidence to the contrary that those who want the Old Mass are nothing but a minority in the Church, yes they are a very vocal one, but I do not believe that there are enough to support an Old Mass at every parish. Heck the bishops have determined that there aren’t even enough to support an Indult Mass in every Diocese.