Latin mass.. to be celebrated in all parishes

[Kielbasi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kielbasi
*
In the Pittsburgh area, the Latin mass is said in a grand total of one parish, St. Boniface, which has been largely depopulated due to interstate highway construction. .

I don’t know how long you’ve been away from Pittsburgh, but your statement is not accurate. The highway you talk about was completed 20 years ago! I attend the TLM at St. Boniface’s and I assure you it is packed every Sunday. The 8 AM Low Mass gets a pretty good crowd, and the 11 AM High Mass is packed. Packed!!!

And FYI - the local, NO Mass that lets out right before our High Mass (the one with the tamborine hymns and women wearing tank tops, etc.) is also pretty well full. So, that Church most definitely gets its use.

By “parish” , I was of course referring to the geographic territory which St. Boniface serves, the East St. Valley. I 279 was completed about a dozen years ago, and the area is still not repopulated.

I’ll take your word of course that St. Boniface is well attended, I guess the diocese redrew the parish’s traditional boundaries, in the light of other Northside parishes which have closed, Annunciation, St. Weneslaus, old St. Mary’s.

I 'll stand corrected, although I have been in Pittsburgh my entire life, I almost never go to Northside.

 

[otm]

Kielbasi:

That’s really not a very fair way of figuring. Latin Masses are only said in a small number of American Catholic parishes, and often in parishes which have very small populations.

In the Pittsburgh area, the Latin mass is said in a grand total of one parish, St. Boniface, which has been largely depopulated due to interstate highway construction. Elsewhere , the sole parish in Detroit in which it is said is in Poletown, another community with a very small population, in Detroit’s case due to industrial development.

If Latin mass were said in growing and prosperous parishes, would it make a difference? Quite possibly, indeed even probably. After all, when Latin mass was said in big parishes, it did have a large number of folks in attendence.

Actually, it is quite fair. People who really want this will travel to attend; they already are. The point I am trying to make is that most of the TLM Masses that are being said are not in isolated areas, and most of them are not being filled to overflowing; if they were, both the priests saying them and the people attending would have the rational and reasonable basis to have them expanded either beyond the parish to another parish, or to more of the Masses at that parish be said under the TLM rite. for all the discussion had about it, and for all the requests, there simply are not very many people who are attending that rite.

agin, Let’s talk numbers. I have yet seen anyone actually do that; everything is anecdotal. I don’t beleieve in conspiracies, and I do understand that there undoubtedly are some bishops who will make no effort whatsoever to grant the indult. I have seen a liting of the parishes nation wide that have the TLM, and there are any number of states that have only 1 church with one Mass on Sunday. I simply do not buy into the concept that if it is presented to everyone, the response will be overwhelming. It is underwhelming now in the cities which have the Mass available under the TLM rite.
I can understand a parish being depopulated due to construction or demographic changes. That should be of little or no concern to anyone who is truly committed to the TLM being better (or whatever adjective you wish to use) thn the Pauline rite. I understand people being used to going to Mass in the neighborhood, but getting in you car and traveling a mile or two, or even 6 or 7, should be a very minor issue if it is that much different.

 

[otm]

Fogny:

You hit the nail right on the head. Most people don’t remember the Latin Roman Rite Mass. In another generation most will be dead, just what the liberals counted on.
What was crammed down everybody’s throat, you must be young or ignorant, the NO mass was and that is not revisionist history but the truth.

Fogny

Actually, it was a fairly small segment that felt it was being “crammed down” anyone’s throat.

And as a matter of fact, it is not correct unless it is a parish with no one over 50.

Sorry, the nail got bent.

 

[otm]

viktor aleksndr:

well if it is impossible to every parishes, i think at least in every cathedral (main church of a diocese)… An EWTN like mass will be enough to re live the Latin prayers and some part of the TLM…

Latin is not just the Language of the Latin Catholic church but also used during the time of Jesus Christ… (Roman Empire) am i right?

Latin was the language of the conqueror. Christ spoke Aramaic, the language of Israel in His time, and read Hebrew, which is the language the (Old Testament) Scripture.

The new Testament was written in Greek. the Mass was said in the language of the people (which accounts in minor part for the Eastern Rite(s) liturgies. Gradually, Latin became the language of the Roman rite; however, there was a period of time where a shift was made back to Greek; it did not last for long, however.

 

[otm]

garfield:

It might be interesting to have an aramaic mass and hear the words Jesus spoke as they would have sounded.

then if you can, find a Maronite rite liturgy; part of it is in Aramaeic, part in Arabic, and part in English.

 

[alterserver_07]

I think that that should happen. Then people can’t add their own words to the mass. I would love it with my whole heart.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

viktor aleksndr:

well if it is impossible to every parishes, i think at least in every cathedral (main church of a diocese)… An EWTN like mass will be enough to re live the Latin prayers and some part of the TLM…

Actually, if there was sufficient support, I would go further and suggest what I believe Netmil(name removed by moderator) suggested someplace: that it be offered in at least one church in a vicarate or deanery or whatever we call the subsets that are smaller than a diocese, but encompass several parishes.

 

[ImperialPhoenix]

Personaly, I would perfer attending a mass that use English. First, I dont understand Latin and lastly, hearing it in an English form would be more easyer for me to learn and understand.

 

[otm]

UKcatholicGuy:

You should brush up on Church history. You sound like one of those anti-Catholics who says, “The Church didnt ‘invent’ transubstantiation until the Council of Trent!”

The TLM was officially codified at the Council of Trent, but the basic form of the TLM had been around for at least 900-1,000 yrs prior. Trent sought to codify the Mass to make sure it was uniform.

The basic form of the Mass was around from the earliest Church. There were numerous rites in the Roamn (Western) Church at the time of Trent, and Trent sought to consolidate and clean up the various forms. They were, however, relatively similar.

It is the promoters of the TLM who try to say that it was the same form for centuries, and they are correct insofar as the general format was the same. But that can also be said of the Pauline rite; it is relatively the same as the TLM. The differences are largely in the prayers which have changed (although, for example, the Offeratory prayer is still the Offeratory prayer), and the rubrics have been simplified from what was seen as a somewhat hyper-technical level.

So the basic form of the TLM has been around for centuries, and it is still here in the Pauline rite. But it is facetious to say that the the TLM was the Mass for centuries, as some have said. You could have attended almost any of the rites prior to Trent’s codification and recognized it for what it was - The Mass. You might not have recognized the specifics, but you most certainly would have recognized the general form.

And that is not historical revisionism, or any Protestant statement. People who try to make the TLM as somehow radically different that the Pauline rite are generally blinded by their own prejudices.

 

[Fogny]

otm:

The basic form of the Mass was around from the earliest Church. But that can also be said of the Pauline rite; it is relatively the same as the TLM. The differences are largely in the prayers which have changed (although, for example, the Offeratory prayer is still the Offeratory prayer), and the rubrics have been simplified from what was seen as a somewhat hyper-technical level.

So the basic form of the TLM has been around for centuries, and it is still here in the Pauline rite. But it is facetious to say that the the TLM was the Mass for centuries, as some have said. You could have attended almost any of the rites prior to Trent’s codification and recognized it for what it was - The Mass. You might not have recognized the specifics, but you most certainly would have recognized the general form.

And that is not historical revisionism, or any Protestant statement. People who try to make the TLM as somehow radically different that the Pauline rite are generally blinded by their own prejudices.

To each his own, to say that both are apples is wrong in my view. Apples and Oranges yes, the constant arguement on this forum is a simple testament to that undeniable truth. Shall I point out the differences, no that is not needed. Just read the thousands of posts on the liturgy or better yet get your eyes and ears checked my friend.

Fogny

 

[coralewisjr]

viktor aleksndr:

i hope that the latin mass be celebrated at least once a week in all parishes around the world… what do you think?

I hope so, too!

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[Kielbasi]

otm:

Actually, it is quite fair. People who really want this will travel to attend; they already are. …

agin, Let’s talk numbers. I have yet seen anyone actually do that; …
I can understand a parish being depopulated due to construction or demographic changes. That should be of little or no concern to anyone who is truly committed to the TLM being better (or whatever adjective you wish to use) thn the Pauline rite. I understand people being used to going to Mass in the neighborhood, but getting in you car and traveling a mile or two, or even 6 or 7, should be a very minor issue if it is that much different.

The vast majority of Catholics who attend mass want to do so in their own parishes, and always have and will, for both social and theological reasons.

The fact that they are doing what they have always done, doesn’t indicate their preference or lack of preference for latin mass or any other kind of mass.

If a Catholic had a really strong preference for the Latin mass, that they felt that the English mass wasn’t proper or valid worship, they wouldn’t be likely to attend an indult mass anyhow, they’d most likely attend an independent latin mass said by a renegade priest who shared their strong preference.

If a Catholic had a milder preference for the TLM, and believed that the English mass was still valid worship, they might attend the indult mass, they might also attend the local parish, as that could easily be another preference of theirs.

There are probably a fairly sizable number of Catholics who would prefer to hear Latin mass, yet still are in the local parishes. How many? Who can say?

As far as numbers, attendance is certainly down since Latin was moved out of most parishes, although undoubtably that wasn’t the only cause.

 

[jimmy]

otm:

Actually, it is quite fair. People who really want this will travel to attend; they already are. The point I am trying to make is that most of the TLM Masses that are being said are not in isolated areas, and most of them are not being filled to overflowing; if they were, both the priests saying them and the people attending would have the rational and reasonable basis to have them expanded either beyond the parish to another parish, or to more of the Masses at that parish be said under the TLM rite. for all the discussion had about it, and for all the requests, there simply are not very many people who are attending that rite.

agin, Let’s talk numbers. I have yet seen anyone actually do that; everything is anecdotal. I don’t beleieve in conspiracies, and I do understand that there undoubtedly are some bishops who will make no effort whatsoever to grant the indult. I have seen a liting of the parishes nation wide that have the TLM, and there are any number of states that have only 1 church with one Mass on Sunday. I simply do not buy into the concept that if it is presented to everyone, the response will be overwhelming. It is underwhelming now in the cities which have the Mass available under the TLM rite.
I can understand a parish being depopulated due to construction or demographic changes. That should be of little or no concern to anyone who is truly committed to the TLM being better (or whatever adjective you wish to use) thn the Pauline rite. I understand people being used to going to Mass in the neighborhood, but getting in you car and traveling a mile or two, or even 6 or 7, should be a very minor issue if it is that much different.

I am pretty sure that all Latin Parishes are pretty full like St. Boniface. There are several bishops that will not even allow one parish to say the latin mass. For example the bishop here in central Pennsylvania in the Altoona and State College area will not allow it. I know a preist here that has wanted to say it, but the bishop will not allow it. There are people that have to drive several hours just to get to a Latin Mass. It should be made somewhat accessable to the people so that they don’t have to spend 5 hours every sunday in the car. There would be a far greater turnout if people did not have to drive so far.

 

[coralewisjr]

ImperialPhoenix:

Personaly, I would perfer attending a mass that use English. First, I dont understand Latin and lastly, hearing it in an English form would be more easyer for me to learn and understand.

I understand where you’re coming from. I assure you that there are missals with English and Latin so you can follow along, and the lack of English (except during the sermon) is well worth it.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[coralewisjr]

Kielbasi:

The vast majority of Catholics who attend mass want to do so in their own parishes, and always have and will, for both social and theological reasons.

The fact that they are doing what they have always done, doesn’t indicate their preference or lack of preference for latin mass or any other kind of mass.

If a Catholic had a really strong preference for the Latin mass, that they felt that the English mass wasn’t proper or valid worship, they wouldn’t be likely to attend an indult mass anyhow, they’d most likely attend an independent latin mass said by a renegade priest who shared their strong preference.

If a Catholic had a milder preference for the TLM, and believed that the English mass was still valid worship, they might attend the indult mass, they might also attend the local parish, as that could easily be another preference of theirs.

There are probably a fairly sizable number of Catholics who would prefer to hear Latin mass, yet still are in the local parishes. How many? Who can say?

As far as numbers, attendance is certainly down since Latin was moved out of most parishes, although undoubtably that wasn’t the only cause.

DH and I travel about an hour every Sunday to go to the TLM when we have three NO parishes in our town. We’ve heard stories at our parish of the parishioners travelling more than we do. One family even moved from their state (where they travelled a lot to worship at the TLM) to this state, where they can attend without so much trouble. I wouldn’t call the priests “renegade”. They are the best priests I’ve ever seen and I’ve seen a few in my 20 years.

What were the other causes of decreased attendance besides the New Mass?

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

i watched EWTN live toay and he priest said that POPE BENEDICT XVI loves the TLM and these priests who celebrate TLM are happy that they can see that TLM will return to the churches all over the world

 

[rcn]

viktor aleksndr:

i watched EWTN live toay and he priest said that POPE BENEDICT XVI loves the TLM and these priests who celebrate TLM are happy that they can see that TLM will return to the churches all over the world

I assume this was the German priest who was the guest on “EWTN Live” on Wednesday night? He was affiliated with the “Institute of Christ the King”, I believe in Chicago.

To put it as politely as I can, he seemed rather out of touch with reality. He kept commenting on the “tremendous increase” in interest in the TLM, as did many of the callers. However, no one pointed out that even if interest doubled from .01% to .02%, it’s still a vanishingly small minority.

 

[alih]

there is a wbsite operated by a fr. morrison, known as “tradicio.”
they publish a list chapels and churches that offer the tridentine mass. many are reported to be not in communion with rome, however they have duly concecrated priests and bishops.
prior vatican pronouncements state that although many are considered illicit, they are legal. i have attended some throughout the country and even some in diocesen (sp?) churches. have a goodyear. alih.

 

[netmilsmom]

rcn:

To put it as politely as I can, he seemed rather out of touch with reality. He kept commenting on the “tremendous increase” in interest in the TLM, as did many of the callers. However, no one pointed out that even if interest doubled from .01% to .02%, it’s still a vanishingly small minority.

Do you have a reference to your figure of .01% that WANT the TLM?

How do you know? By the numbers of people who are willing to drive an hour to a downtown parish every Sunday to get it?

How about one in every county? That would work for me. We have an independent Catholic church (one that denies Rome) in the area who might well attend and come back to Rome if it was offered in the area.

Who wants to drive an hour in a Michigan Winter?

 

[Scotty_PGH]

rcn:

He kept commenting on the “tremendous increase” in interest in the TLM, as did many of the callers.

And there you are scratching your head. “How can this be!??! Oh I know, they must be CRAZY. Out of touch with reality, I tell you! That’s the ticket!”

Maybe they’re on to something…

You remind me of the guy standing in front of the dam with his finger in the hole.