Latin mass.. to be celebrated in all parishes

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

My friend, I do not attend the TLM. I’ve seen it once on a DVD. There is no implied assumption for my own enjoyment.
I just believe that with the Charistmatic groups running our churches, people deserve another choice.
And while you sit in your Eastern Rite church, the modernist take our liturgy really you don’t have a dog in this fight.

You are correct that I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I am Roman rite.

I take them to the other liturgies because I want them to see and understand that Catholic means universal, and the Roman rite they have joined is not the sum and substance of the Church; it may well be the largest, but not the only rite, and the Eastern rite churches bring a real richness to the Church.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

Eastern rite churches bring a real richness to the Church.

We should be allowed the same.

 

[otm]

Kielbasi:

Very few people will drive a very long distance to get to mass on Sunday, unless they have to.

I’d like to see a survey of TLM participants and how far they actually do travel.

In Pittsburgh, I suspect that you would find proportionately a lot more attending St. Boniface from Spring Hill, Fineview, Observatory Hill, than you would from outlying areas, and more from the closer outlying areas in the North Hills than the further outlying areas.

I would have no idea; I live in western Oregon.

We have one parish, run by the Dominicans, which has a reputation of being somewhat conservative. I don’t believe they offer the Pauline rite in Latin, and they don’t offer the TLM. They do, however, draw from a fairly wide area; one of the members of this formu drives about 2) minutes to a half hour to go to Mass there, as he lives in Gresham; they also draw from across the Columbia, from Vancouver, Washington.

From what I have seen, and I didn’t look really close, it seems that there may only be a handful (5? 7?) of parishes nationwide that have all their Masses TLM.

For all the complaints that the bishops won’t give in to the (overwhelming) demand for more TLMs, I would assume that at first we would see more than one Mass a Sunday at that parish as TLM. Again, the evidence just seems that there really isn’t a demand there.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

For all the complaints that the bishops won’t give in to the (overwhelming) demand for more TLMs, I would assume that at first we would see more than one Mass a Sunday at that parish as TLM. Again, the evidence just seems that there really isn’t a demand there.

Our local “Independent” Catholic church has three TLM on Sunday. All filled.

 

[JNB]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

We should be allowed the same.

It is sad that so many clergy and self appointed laity have so little respect for the Westeren liturgical traditions, though how much longer this element will hold on to power is a another question. For example your parish, a parish that is liturgically closer to the TLM than the typical NO will have 10 of its boys in the seminary this fall, while other parishes in your area have probably have had no vocations in years.

 

[netmilsmom]

JNB:

It is sad that so many clergy and self appointed laity have so little respect for the Westeren liturgical traditions, though how much longer this element will hold on to power is a another question. For example your parish, a parish that is liturgically closer to the TLM than the typical NO will have 10 of its boys in the seminary this fall, while other parishes in your area have probably have had no vocations in years.

Amen!
They can get the “Community” anywhere. We offer so much more.

I’m praying and praying. Besides, we pop out more children than they do. Mothers feel blessed if they get a Priest!
I love my parish!

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Kielbasi:

Very few people will drive a very long distance to get to mass on Sunday, unless they have to.

I’d like to see a survey of TLM participants and how far they actually do travel.

In Pittsburgh, I suspect that you would find proportionately a lot more attending St. Boniface from Spring Hill, Fineview, Observatory Hill, than you would from outlying areas, and more from the closer outlying areas in the North Hills than the further outlying areas.

Kielbasi, at some point you need to stop taking these stabs in the dark about St Boniface. You’re on a roll here for being wrong. We have people who come from Beaver County, Westmoreland Co and even Harrisburg to attend the TLM at St. B’s.

 

[ddimitro]

For those arguing about the 1/1000000 of 1% who actually attend the TLM:

They know that the number of churches and faithful within those churches isn’t even close to the estimate of those who would regularly attend if it was more widely offered. Why?

–The relatively few mean that many–if not most–would have to travel 30 minutes to 2 hours+ to attend. With work and family, and so many who view their Sunday obligation as just that, an obligation, do you really think they are going to make that commitment of time?

–I’d say that the majority of faithful either (1) have no idea what the TLM is and/or (2) have no idea it’s even available. And then talking about what it is to them isn’t even going to help. You must experience it.

–In many/most TLMs, it’s just too full. I’ve been to several different churches, and am always suprised at the numbers. If people know they have to arrive 30 minutes beforehand just to get a seat, come on. This is the US, you know that this is not going to happen. Sure, not every one is full. Review the entire situation before concluding it’s lack of interest.

–Most seminaries in the US don’t even offer Latin in their curriculum: I checked, as I am following a vocation. Even if in utopia, every parish had to begin offering the TLM effective next Sunday, there would be so few priests who could even say the prayers, let alone follow the complex rubrics.

I believe that good things will happen for the TLM during Benedict XVI’s pontificate. If a personal prelature, “universal indult” (which then is no longer an indult), or apostolic administration is approved for the TLM, the laity still have alot of work to do. The message needs to get out, priests need to get educated, children (and most of their parents) need to get catechized and then the Mass will spread.

No, Rome is not going to replace the Pauline Mass, at least during our lifetime. But we can do that through attrition. The measures to take are enormous, but possible.

Pray for and support the traditional seminaries (FSSP, ICK, etc.) which are overflowing with quality candidates. They are the root of hope for the TLM. But just the root. The leaves and branches are still forthcoming.
DD

 

[SnorterLuster]

otm:

. After Vatican 2 and the changes from the TLM to the Pauline rite, surveys were taken; in general, semwhere between 80 and 95% approved of the changes. Those surveys were taken before the dissent that flowed after Humanae Vitae hit the fan, which ultimately led to the widespread dissent with authority in general, showing up in the approach to the rubrics as well.

Do you have a link to those surveys? I would like to read them if you do.

Thanks,
Snorter

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

Instruction on Music in the Sacred Liturgy, Sacred Congregation of Rites, 5 March 1967

Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular “the faithful also know how to say or sing, in Latin also, those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

When the bishops asked for the entire Mass in the vernacular, Pope Paul VI granted this, but continued to ***insist on the people being able to pray the “ordinary parts” (that is, those that remain the same in every Mass, such as the dialogues “Dominus vobiscum” “Et cum spiritu tuo,” Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei etc.) in Latin ***and ALSO according to the simple Gregorian chant modes. Thus,

Iubilate Deo, Preface, Pope Paul VI, 14 April 1974

The Bond of Unity. The Second Vatican Council in the “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy” added the following reminder to its exhortation that vernacular languages should have a suitable place in liturgical celebration: It should be arranged that the faithful can say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass that belongs to them.

​

 

[Confiteor]

Instruction on Music in the Sacred Liturgy, Sacred Congregation of Rites, 5 March 1967

Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular “the faithful also know how to say or sing, in Latin also, those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

When the bishops asked for the entire Mass in the vernacular, Pope Paul VI granted this, but continued to ***insist on the people being able to pray the “ordinary parts” (that is, those that remain the same in every Mass, such as the dialogues “Dominus vobiscum” “Et cum spiritu tuo,” Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei etc.) in Latin ***and ALSO according to the simple Gregorian chant modes. Thus,

Iubilate Deo, Preface, Pope Paul VI, 14 April 1974

The Bond of Unity. The Second Vatican Council in the “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy” added the following reminder to its exhortation that vernacular languages should have a suitable place in liturgical celebration: It should be arranged that the faithful can say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass that belongs to them.

​

This compliance with already applicable instructions from the Vatican would be a good place to start. How many parishes actually use the Latin bits that we’re all supposed to know? I would like to see the schoolchildren in our parish school learn to sing some of the very easy, traditional chant responses to the Mass and some of the traditional Catholic hymns. Instead they hear their teacher sing Christian rock songs to the accompaniment of guitar and bongo drum. (Pretty songs, but definitely “performed” by the teacher-singer since many of the children weren’t given the lyrics (and there was no “score” given the congregation). Nice to listen to in the car, maybe, if you can sort out the doctrinal issues, but I can think of better choices for Mass.

 

[aspergesme]

The TLM is not a legal right

OTM,

On what do you base this statement.

In the Bull Quo Primum, St. Pius V gave the right to the Tridentine Mass in perpetuity.

Pope John Paul II found that the TLM has never been abrogated.

The FSSP offers the TLM without an indult with Rome’s approval. Does the Holy Father promote “illegal” or “illicit” rites?

If you can prove otherwise please do.

Pax

 

[rcn]

aspergesme:

If you can prove otherwise please do.

You’re big on requiring “proof”, eh?

This is a very simple matter. The TLM is only available through an indult, a special permission. A bishop may or may not choose to allow it in his jurisdiction. No one has the “right” to it. They may ask, but the request does not have to be granted.

 

[otm]

aspergesme:

OTM,

On what do you base this statement.

In the Bull Quo Primum, St. Pius V gave the right to the Tridentine Mass in perpetuity.

Pope John Paul II found that the TLM has never been abrogated.

The FSSP offers the TLM without an indult with Rome’s approval. Does the Holy Father promote “illegal” or “illicit” rites?

If you can prove otherwise please do.

Pax

I am not going to go round and round with you, nor am I going to get into an arguement about what the word “abrogated” might mean. It is plain and simple: if the TLM can be said by indult, then if the indult is not granted by the bishop, one is defying authority. If there is no need to get permission of the bishop, then the indult has no meaning. The normative Mass is the Mass according to the most recent rite promulgated, the Pauline rite.

To say that there is a legal right to say the TLM is to say that one does not have to request the indult and have it granted; it is to say that the indult has no meaning.
I have no knowledge one way or the other about what may have been granted to the FSSP one way or another, but any priest who exercises their priestly functions in a diocese does so with the explicit permission fo the bishop of that diocese, so if the FSSp say the TLM by grant of Rome, they do so in a particular diocese with the specific permission of that bishop; they don’t just wander in and set up an altar and start saying Mass. That in effect is the same as an indult; the TLM is being said with the permission of the bishop.

 

[lyoncoeur]

When Writing about the Right to perform a particular Rite {I have always wanted to use the three spellings of the word in one sentance} one must remember…or be reminded that every Priest {as I understand it} has the Right to privately say the TLM if he so wishes…without the nessissitty of seeking permission of the Bishop, that permission is only required if the Priest is saying mass in public.

 

[Podo2005]

UKcatholicGuy:

I must disagree here, Sgt. There is no reason why, with as many people want the TLM, there could not eventually be a TLM in every parish. The Holy Father (JP2 that is) told every bishop to be generous with the “indult” to celebrate the TLM. I say it’s time we stop letting the modernists tell us it’s impossible to have a TLM in every parish, that the TLM is dead, those who like it are stuck in the old days, etc.

We must remember that it was the official Mass of the Church for 1,500 yrs pre-Vatican II. Now it’s treated as some disease.

Amen. And I’d be willing to bet that if the Church went back to the TLM, you would see an explosion in Adoration. On a side note, I think Eucharist Adoration–or the lack of it-- truly exposes the modernists for who they are. They’re people who don’t love Our Lord. When I say modernist, of course, I mean those who promote the “spirit of Vatican II”, which usually differ enormously from the teachings of V2. Anyway, if you notice, it’s always the orthodox, faithful parishes that have Adoration (perpetual). The “liberal” parishes are too busy focusing on how to celebrate themselves to worship our Eucharistic Lord, I suppose.

Correction: The tridentine mass came out of the council of trent which was 500 hundred years ago not 1,500. And most catholics in the world celebrate the Novus Ordo mass so the Tridentine mass isn’t likely to come back.
And by saying that we need more adoration isn’t right, we have enough. There are times to pray and times to participate as a community. Whether you are praying silently or celebrating you are still adoring the Lord. It is NOT liberal to celebrate the mass. Vatican II teaches us to participate in the mass, to celebrate it. If you reject that teaching then you don’t follow the church, this is what the church has laid down, this is what we have to follow and It’ll only change if the church decides to change it. For now we have it whether we like it or not.
Just some help from,
podo2005

 

[jimmy]

Podo2005:

Correction: The tridentine mass came out of the council of trent which was 500 hundred years ago not 1,500. And most catholics in the world celebrate the Novus Ordo mass so the Tridentine mass isn’t likely to come back.
And by saying that we need more adoration isn’t right, we have enough. There are times to pray and times to participate as a community. Whether you are praying silently or celebrating you are still adoring the Lord. It is NOT liberal to celebrate the mass. Vatican II teaches us to participate in the mass, to celebrate it. If you reject that teaching then you don’t follow the church, this is what the church has laid down, this is what we have to follow and It’ll only change if the church decides to change it. For now we have it whether we like it or not.
Just some help from,
podo2005

Correction. The Tridentine mass is based on The Liturgy which Gregory the Great celibrated almost 1500 years ago. It was made the official Mass at the time of Trent.

The Church still teaches that the Mass is to be reverent. They have not changed how it should be. They still allow the TLM.

 

[jimmy]

Here is a link that has some articles about the history of The Mass.

latin-mass-society.org/

 

[Sean_O_L]

Correction. The Tridentine mass is based on The Liturgy which Gregory the Great celibrated almost 1500 years ago. It was made the official Mass at the time of Trent.

Actually, there is no such thing, oficially, as a “Tridentine Mass” - or a “Novus Ordo Mass”.

There are seven Sacraments, one of which is the Eucharist; the liturgy for which is known as the Mass.

The Mass is the Mass is the Mass. It is the same today, as through the past 20 centuries, as it was at The Last Supper. The authorized Rites and Liturgies are multiple. The Liturgy for the Roman Rite prior to [Quo primum tempore" was contained in the *Missale Romanum - as it has been ever since, and remains today. Pope Paul VI lawfully and validly promulgated his Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum with the same Apostolic Power as did Pope St Pius V. The 1969 liturgy for the Roman Rite was contained in the official Mass Missal Missale Romanum.

There has NEVER been an officially named “Tridentine Mass” or Missal. That the former liturgy is commonly known as TLM or Tridentine Mass simply means that it is commonly known as…

The Church still teaches that the Mass is to be reverent. They have not changed how it should be. They still allow the TLM.

Amen. But, “they still allow the TLM” by Indult which may or may not be granted by the local Ordinary - who may view the actions and motives of some of the so-called “traditionalists” as grounds for not granting the Indult.

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

with regard to history, the TLM had existed for 1500 years ago. now with regard to indult, the priest doesnt need an indult if he is going to celebrate it privately (privately i think means that only to those people who wanted to attend TLM) but if it is going to be celebrated publicly, well an indult is necessary. This is what the CHURCH states.