Latin mass.. to be celebrated in all parishes

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Scotty PGH:
You remind me of the guy standing in front of the dam with his finger in the hole.
Thanks for sharing those personal thoughts.

But the facts are that there simply isn’t any “dam” holding back any “flood” of people desperate for the TLM. In those dioceses that allow it, one of two masses a week for the entire diocese seems to be enough to meet demand.

And what if it wasn’t? What if demand increased tenfold, to 10 or 20 masses a week? Still just a small drop in a very large bucket.

That every online message board is at least 50% dominated by very vocal TLM fans doesn’t change the reality.
 
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rcn:
Thanks for sharing those personal thoughts.

But the facts are that there simply isn’t any “dam” holding back any “flood” of people desperate for the TLM. In those dioceses that allow it, one of two masses a week for the entire diocese seems to be enough to meet demand.

And what if it wasn’t? What if demand increased tenfold, to 10 or 20 masses a week? Still just a small drop in a very large bucket.

That every online message board is at least 50% dominated by very vocal TLM fans doesn’t change the reality.
All I keep asking is, where are you getting your facts???
 
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Fogny:
To each his own, to say that both are apples is wrong in my view. Apples and Oranges yes, the constant arguement on this forum is a simple testament to that undeniable truth. Shall I point out the differences, no that is not needed. Just read the thousands of posts on the liturgy or better yet get your eyes and ears checked my friend.

Fogny
You are welcome to point out the differences. I did not say they are the same; I said they are materially the same. I was an altar server before Vatican 2 occured; I am quite familiar with the TLM.

A large part of what attracts people to the TLM, from the posts I read, is the emotional reaction to the TLM, fostered in large part by how they define reverance and irreverance.

There is a subset of those who go to the TLM who try to say that it is theologically superior, to the point for some of them, of openly questioning whether or not the Pauline rite is even legitimate. That is seriously open to question, and those who posit this, act as if their theological training had much more depth and breadth than it has. From all apeearances and statements, their postion mimics, if not outright adopts the postions and languag of the SSPX; that in and of itself should be a clue.

I have read the posts on the TLM, and I would hazard a guess I have been to more TLM rite Masses in my lifetime than the majority of the writers; I hardly need to have my eyes and ears checked. Much of the emphasis on the differences between the two rites has less to do with the differences than it does to the emotional reactions. Ther;e are greater differences between, say, the Maronite rite and either the Pauline rite or the TLM than there are between the Pauline rite and the TLM themselves.

Oh, and I have attended the Maronite rite, too.
 
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jimmy:
I am pretty sure that all Latin Parishes are pretty full like St. Boniface. There are several bishops that will not even allow one parish to say the latin mass. For example the bishop here in central Pennsylvania in the Altoona and State College area will not allow it. I know a preist here that has wanted to say it, but the bishop will not allow it. There are people that have to drive several hours just to get to a Latin Mass. It should be made somewhat accessable to the people so that they don’t have to spend 5 hours every sunday in the car. There would be a far greater turnout if people did not have to drive so far.
It wll may be so that more would attend if it were more available, but your guess about how full they are is just that; a guess, as some of the posters who go to a TLM have reported openly that the Mass is not filling the church. In addition, there is a site on the web that lists TLM Masses in the various parishes by state, and some of them have the TLM less than every Sunday (and as there is no other parish listed in that state with an alternate schedule, it is safe to presume that the schedule is not due to the priest having to say it in another parish). I see no reason to presume that the site is not relatively accurate.

I have spoken with a number of people who have said that they would like to attend a Mass in Latin (and I take the time to distinguish between the two rites to those who are not familiar with the TLM); while they have said that they would like to attend; most will admit that it is more a matter of curiosity rather than any particular desire to have a TLM Mass always available. I shave spoken with only 4 or 5 people who have expressed a serious longing for the TLM to replace the Pauline rite and one of them has joined a schismatic group. The rest could not even bother themselves to travel the approximate 30 to 45 minutes to get to a TLM, or even a Pauline rite said in Latin (closer to 20 - 25 minutes away)more than once or twice a year. Most of the rest who spoke about it as a desire would not make the effort to go a first time, or if they went, to go a second time.

That means to me that it is seen more as a curiosity and an occasional experience rather than any great desire.
 
Ther;e are greater differences between, say, the Maronite rite and either the Pauline rite or the TLM than there are between the Pauline rite and the TLM themselves.
That would depend, of course, on what you personally consider to be a more important difference.
In my view, the principal difference between the Latin and English masses, is the kind of participation of the faithful. The Latin mass emphasizes internal participation exclusively while the Pauline rite brings in vocal participation by the people.

I would think if the Maronite faithful were more vocal that they would be closer to the Pauline rite, no?
 
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coralewisjr:
DH and I travel about an hour every Sunday to go to the TLM when we have three NO parishes in our town. We’ve heard stories at our parish of the parishioners travelling more than we do. One family even moved from their state (where they travelled a lot to worship at the TLM) to this state, where they can attend without so much trouble. I wouldn’t call the priests “renegade”. They are the best priests I’ve ever seen and I’ve seen a few in my 20 years.

What were the other causes of decreased attendance besides the New Mass?

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
Other than specualtion and a “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” argument that the change to vernacular caused a fall off in attendance, there has been no showing that the change caused the fall off.

If you want reasons, some of the causes can more correctly be attributed to almost absolute dumbing down of catechetical materials starting in the 70’s, the massive dissent to Humanae Vitae that occured upon its release, coupled with the slide into dissent that started not long after that on other issues, and more particularly dissent over moral theology; the tremendous increase in materialism that was ramping up shortly after World War 2 that really started to hit stride in the mid to late 60’s, and really took off in the 70’s, and rebounded in the 90’s; the phenomenal increase in media types and availability (gosh, can you believe that most people didn’t have more than one TV in their homes in the 60’s, and many didn’t even have one, and they were black and white?!) and the subsequent slide into open pornography; the list goes on and on.
Studies made not long after the switch showed widespread acceptance of the vernacular, in the range of 80 to 95 %. Keep in mind that the Catholic Church is not an isolated group in the fall off of attendance; it has occured through almost all of the mainline churches, and generally appears to be even worse statistically in them than the Catholic Church; and they were in the vernacular since before Trent. For example, England, in which the state Church is the Anglican, has now been de facto replaced by the Catholic Church in actual as well as statistical attendance. And the Anglican rite has been vernacular back to when Henry was whacking wives.
 
viktor aleksndr:
i watched EWTN live today and he priest said that POPE BENEDICT XVI loves the TLM and these priests who celebrate TLM are happy that they can see that TLM will return to the churches all over the world
Given that the grant of the indult was intimately tied to the schism of Archbishop Lefavre, and then Cardinal Ratzinger was John Paul 2’s right hand man in dealing with that schism, and then Cardinal Ratzinger said publically that the Church could not deal with another massive change in liturgy, one would give pause to making such specualtions were one to seriously consider that evidence. And given that the vast majority of people throughout the world attend the Pauline rite and are not agitating for any change, that appears to be a very isolated opinion.
 
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alih:
there is a wbsite operated by a fr. morrison, known as “tradicio.”
they publish a list chapels and churches that offer the tridentine mass. many are reported to be not in communion with rome, however they have duly concecrated priests and bishops.
prior vatican pronouncements state that although many are considered illicit, they are legal. i have attended some throughout the country and even some in diocesen (sp?) churches. have a goodyear. alih.
If they are illicitly ordained, they are not under the aegis of the local bishop and are in violation of numerous Canon laws. In other words, they are schismatic. Attendance at a schismatic Mass knowingly is a serious sin of disobedience to the Church, and therefore does not qualify as fulfilling the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday.
 
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otm:
You are welcome to point out the differences. I did not say they are the same; I said they are materially the same. I was an altar server before Vatican 2 occured; I am quite familiar with the TLM.

A large part of what attracts people to the TLM, from the posts I read, is the emotional reaction to the TLM, fostered in large part by how they define reverance and irreverance.

There is a subset of those who go to the TLM who try to say that it is theologically superior, to the point for some of them, of openly questioning whether or not the Pauline rite is even legitimate. That is seriously open to question, and those who posit this, act as if their theological training had much more depth and breadth than it has. From all apeearances and statements, their postion mimics, if not outright adopts the postions and languag of the SSPX; that in and of itself should be a clue.

I have read the posts on the TLM, and I would hazard a guess I have been to more TLM rite Masses in my lifetime than the majority of the writers; I hardly need to have my eyes and ears checked. Much of the emphasis on the differences between the two rites has less to do with the differences than it does to the emotional reactions. Ther;e are greater differences between, say, the Maronite rite and either the Pauline rite or the TLM than there are between the Pauline rite and the TLM themselves.

Oh, and I have attended the Maronite rite, too.
Ok, you make a point that taken on a whole, both are still sacrafices of the Mass, I will not argue that point. I will say that the TLM in it’s form gives the participant a more solem experience to acheive holiness. It is emotional and that is what it should be.
If a poll were taken about why people attend the TLM, the majority would answer that they find it a more profound spiritual experience than the Pauline Mass. Not all feel this way,but for the growing minority they would answer positively.
Emotion is the way to the heart, when it is experienced in a spiritual way it can produce saints. The Pauline Mass is a infant in terms of time, how it evolves is in the hands of the Holy Spirit and sofar it is not complete, otherwise the TLM would not be needed, and many do find a special need.

Fogny
 
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Fogny:
If a poll were taken about why people attend the TLM, the majority would answer that they find it a more profound spiritual experience than the Pauline Mass. Not all feel this way,but for the growing minority they would answer positively.

Fogny
Are we talking about the EWTN NO or the Modern NO offered in most Diocese?
Compare the EWTN to the TLM and the spiritual experience is much closer.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
All I keep asking is, where are you getting your facts???
go check out the website that lists the Masses nationwide for the TLM; then do the math. How many parishes are in that state that has one Mass said on that Sunday in the entire state?
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Are we talking about the EWTN NO or the Modern NO offered in most Diocese?
Compare the EWTN to the TLM and the spiritual experience is much closer.
I am talking about the non EWTN mass as I assume that it is the exception.

Fogny
 
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otm:
go check out the website that lists the Masses nationwide for the TLM; then do the math. How many parishes are in that state that has one Mass said on that Sunday in the entire state?
How many Diocese have a universal Indult?
I know mine doesn’t!
We are blessed by our Cardinal with ONE TLM in a Downtown Parish.
Ever travel an hour to get somewhere in a MI winter? Ever been to Downtown Detroit? Scary!

Your figures are artificial.
 
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Fogny:
I am talking about the non EWTN mass as I assume that it is the exception.

Fogny
That’s a shame, isn’t it?
I think some of the clamor for a TLM would be eliminated if SOME churches in the areas had an EWTN type Holy Mass.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
That’s a shame, isn’t it?
I think some of the clamor for a TLM would be eliminated if SOME churches in the areas had an EWTN type Holy Mass.
I agree, and then you have Bishops who allow the TLM but then it is out in the north forty in some forgotten mission or chapel, also some like in San Francisco ( I won’t mention names) who do not allow it. People wonder why there is so much talk and polarity generated. A sad state of affairs, but It could be worse. Look at the Episcopalians.

Fogny
 
I think that it would be a blessing!
Have the English if they want too…but there should be no reason why the Catholic church should deny its sheep the quality of Mass that they NEED to properly worship God…discipline is a state of mind, not just a reprimand from a parent.
 
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Kielbasi:
That would depend, of course, on what you personally consider to be a more important difference.
In my view, the principal difference between the Latin and English masses, is the kind of participation of the faithful. The Latin mass emphasizes internal participation exclusively while the Pauline rite brings in vocal participation by the people.

I would think if the Maronite faithful were more vocal that they would be closer to the Pauline rite, no?
The Maronite rite is fairly vocal, in english, arabic and Aramaeic.

Given the statement, I believe by St Augustine, that he who sings prays twice, internal participation approaches little or no participation. Notice I did not say that it is no participation, but that it approaches it.

In other words, it is not simply a matter of vocal participation; it is more a matter of more complete participation, both vocal and aural.

I am old enough to remember what the Mass was like when there was “internal participation”. Missals coud be bought, but there were no publishing houses I know of who made them available en masse - you had to go and buy one. Many did not have a missal; the net result was that people purchased and brought along devotional books to Mass, sort of getting a 2 for one bargain - they fulfilled their Sunday Obligation (they were physically present); they stood, sat and knelt at the appropriate times; the later in the day the Mass was said, the fewer participants for Communion; and they read their devotional books or said their rosaries during Mass. One of the main reasons there was such a push for the vernacular was that people were physically present, and not much more. Mass was something that was doen to them, not with them.

Mass is the highest prayer of the Church; it is something we need to participate in, not some sort of ritual bordering on magic that “worked” on us if we were physically present. Granted that those who are attending the indult TLM are participating more intently now, it does not follow that all others would likewise follow along well. Further, going back to Agustine, if singing is praying twisce, I would submit that saying a prayer which is in your native tongue has more impact than simply saying something rote in another language that you have a pretty good idea as to the meaning. Don’t kid me, most of the people attending a TLM now “know” very little Latin, in that they could not change a verb from present to past, or correctly give the correct “person” of the verb if asked, or tell the dative from the ablative. And the vast majority of people who are attending the Pauline rite in English (or Swahili, for that matter) would be almost totally adrift. I pray the prayers the priest is saying along with him as he speaks in English; I can drift off in prayer (for example, during the listing of whom we are praying for), and come right back to where we are simply by listening; should I do that while he is praying in Latin (or Spanish), I am quickly lost, and trying to play catch up. I find a distinct difference in parying along with the priest in English than any other language, be it Spanish or Latin (both of which are reasonably available locally). Prayer is simply more fluid in the native tongue.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How many Diocese have a universal Indult?
I know mine doesn’t!
We are blessed by our Cardinal with ONE TLM in a Downtown Parish.
Ever travel an hour to get somewhere in a MI winter? Ever been to Downtown Detroit? Scary!

Your figures are artificial.
No, as a matter of fact, my figures are very real. Rather than saying they are artificial, tell me if you have actual different figures.

I am not going to argue about winter in Detroit; western Oregon has little or no real snow in most of the cities and towns. However, across the United States, most states have the TLM available on some limited basis. There should be no surprise that the indult is limited as the Pauline rite is the norm, and if there is anything consistnet about the Church, it is that norms are universal, and anthing that is not the nor, but allowed is limited. Indults by their very nature are not universal.
 
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Fogny:
I agree, and then you have Bishops who allow the TLM but then it is out in the north forty in some forgotten mission or chapel, also some like in San Francisco ( I won’t mention names) who do not allow it. People wonder why there is so much talk and polarity generated. A sad state of affairs, but It could be worse. Look at the Episcopalians.

Fogny
Lavada was charged with the spiritual welfare fo that diocese. In his previous diocese, he allowed the indult.

Given the fact that some (not the majority, I assume) are rather radical about the TLM as opposed to the normative rite, he may have well felt that allowing the indult would create or give platform to more devisivness than not allowing it. Since he allowed it in one diocese and not another, and since neither you nor I have any further evidence of why he did not allow it in San Francisco, no conclusion can be drawn other than he felt that it was not spiritually of enough value there for what ever reason to allow it. Were we to know the reasoning, we might disagree with it. Or we might agree with it and say he made a wise pastoral choice. But other than feleings, we have nothing to go on. Charity would seem to indicate that no valid judgement could be made of his choice.

I am not familiar with enough geography to determine if some, or any of the sites which have the TLM were in the “north Forty”, or otherwise in difficult or inaccessible places. But in looking through the sites, I recognized names of towns that were large enough to be of at least passing recognition to someone who is not a geographic wonk. the large majority looked as if they were in centers of at least mediums size cities.
 
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Primitive:
I think that it would be a blessing!
Have the English if they want too…but there should be no reason why the Catholic church should deny its sheep the quality of Mass that they NEED to properly worship God…discipline is a state of mind, not just a reprimand from a parent.
Within 30 years, almost all of the priests ordained from 1964 to 1984 will either be dead or retired. The priests ordained from 1985-1995 will be either dead or fast approaching retirement. those ordained after 1995 were young children when John Paul 2 was made Pope, and would have lived most of their lives under his reign by the time they were ordained.

The latter group (95 onward) tends to be the group that is least concerned with liturgical innovation, and the group that seems most concerned with getting the Church as identified by those in the pews on track with the Magisterium. It helps to keep a little longer perspective on things.
 
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