Latin mass.. to be celebrated in all parishes

[Fogny]

otm:

Lavada was charged with the spiritual welfare fo that diocese. In his previous diocese, he allowed the indult.

Given the fact that some (not the majority, I assume) are rather radical about the TLM as opposed to the normative rite, he may have well felt that allowing the indult would create or give platform to more devisivness than not allowing it. Since he allowed it in one diocese and not another, and since neither you nor I have any further evidence of why he did not allow it in San Francisco, no conclusion can be drawn other than he felt that it was not spiritually of enough value there for what ever reason to allow it. Were we to know the reasoning, we might disagree with it. Or we might agree with it and say he made a wise pastoral choice. But other than feleings, we have nothing to go on. Charity would seem to indicate that no valid judgement could be made of his choice.

I am not familiar with enough geography to determine if some, or any of the sites which have the TLM were in the “north Forty”, or otherwise in difficult or inaccessible places. But in looking through the sites, I recognized names of towns that were large enough to be of at least passing recognition to someone who is not a geographic wonk. the large majority looked as if they were in centers of at least mediums size cities.

This false charity or is it apathy towards Bishops who oppose Catholics in their diocese that request (1) Latin Mass in an area as big as San Francisco(S.F.native so I know the area) is appalling, they will allow every different vernacular but not the TLM. Let’s set the record straight THEY have an agenda and they do not serve their laity well by it.

Fogny

 

[otm]

Fogny:

This false charity or is it apathy towards Bishops who oppose Catholics in their diocese that request (1) Latin Mass in an area as big as San Francisco(S.F.native so I know the area) is appalling, they will allow every different vernacular but not the TLM. Let’s set the record straight THEY have an agenda and they do not serve their laity well by it.

Fogny

I am not suggesting any false charity. Unless you have information as to why he did not allow the TLM, you annot presume that it was because he was against it “just because”, or because he was some sort of liberal.

As I said, he allowed it in the previous diocese; that would indicate that he at least at one point was open to granting the indult.

Further, it is an indult, a permission, and niether Canon Law nor any other rule requires that it be granted. It is to be granted for the builiding up of the faith; which by any logical thread would indicate that it could be withheld if there was risk perceived of more harm than good.

Nor am I suggesting any apathy. I am not apathetic about the issue; but I do consider that judging his motives without more facts flies in the face of the already public facts, to wit: at one point he had granted the indult; therefore there must be a reason that he now chooses not to, and name calling or the implication of name calling isn’t solving anything; in fact, it makes one appear to be more than a little petulant. The TLM is not a legal right; it is something which can be granted or withheld (otherwise it would not be an indult). To imply he has an agenda flies in the face of the fact that he had granted it before.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

No, as a matter of fact, my figures are very real. Rather than saying they are artificial, tell me if you have actual different figures.

Truly, how can I have any figures when the phase in all these posts is that only 1% or 2% of the people WANT the TLM. You can’t tell that by the actual numbers of these masses offered

I am not going to argue about winter in Detroit; western Oregon has little or no real snow in most of the cities and towns. However, across the United States, most states have the TLM available on some limited basis. There should be no surprise that the indult is limited as the Pauline rite is the norm, and if there is anything consistnet about the Church, it is that norms are universal, and anthing that is not the nor, but allowed is limited. Indults by their very nature are not universal.

I agree with everything that you state here, but the only way to find out what the average Pete in the Pew would want is to offer it.
What I’m stating is that one cannot judge the demand for any product when it offered in a limited amount AND at an inconvenient location.
To say that the TLM would not BE popular because it is limited now is not a targeted way to gathering facts. Miadia did the same here. He put it into a downtown parish hoping it would be a novelty and die out. It hasn’t.
If they had a traveling TLM (I know that’s silly), one would get a much more realistic view of who would WANT the TLM.

 

[TNT]

Kielbasi:

By “parish” , I was of course referring to the geographic territory which St. Boniface serves, the East St. Valley. I 279 was completed about a dozen years ago, and the area is still not repopulated.

I’ll take your word of course that St. Boniface is well attended, I guess the diocese redrew the parish’s traditional boundaries, in the light of other Northside parishes which have closed, Annunciation, St. Weneslaus, old St. Mary’s.

I 'll stand corrected, although I have been in Pittsburgh my entire life, I almost never go to Northside.

First, greetings and salutations to all of you PGH members.

Holy Innocents in Sheridan would be an ideal location in SW Pgh for a TLM.

1. It is nearly void of attendance under the NOM.
2. It is magnificant Gothic architecture.
3. Parking space (on / off the street is unlimited, in a mature, unchanging area.
4. It’s my childhood Church when you had to stand outside on the steps if you got to Mass 5min late.
5. It is THE landmark building in Sheridan.
6. It would easily draw from Crafton, Greentree, Ingram, West End, Mckees Rocks, Roselyn Farms all the way to the Airport area.
7. Fr Kohler (bp now?) spent his early years there.
8. Still has a Catholic School.
9. The immediate neighborhood needs evangelising as it is now nearly 0% Catholic.
10. Finally, I fear that the Diocese is going to abandon this Church. In which case I would want to buy it, dis-assemble it and re-assemble it in Arlington TX. (pop. 300,000) which has 0.000 Traditional Designed Churches . You N-East folks are so fortunate in this regard.

 

[Pandora]

As someone who only goes to the TLM I would prefer a TLM Parish per diocese. A traveling TLM is really not possible. You need a Church that caters to the TLM to really see it in it’s full glory. Few Churches to today have a unobstructed altar. You would miss to much with the table infront of the altar. True the TLM of Boston was put in a high crime area intentionally to discourage us. Now they are closing our vibrant Parish to put us in a worse neighborhood with no parking to make it hard for the elderly and large families which are most of them. You have to love the charity on the part of the ArchDiocese of Boston and the radicals here. The Latin Mass community are told we are irrelevant and either lump it where they are putting us or go back to our neighborhood parish. The German’s were told they have no purpose. holytrinitygerman.org/
How is this irrelevant
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Kathy

 

[Kielbasi]

TNT:

First, greetings and salutations to all of you PGH members.

Holy Innocents in Sheridan would be an ideal location in SW Pgh for a TLM.

1. It is nearly void of attendance under the NOM.
2. It is magnificant Gothic architecture.
3. Parking space (on / off the street is unlimited, in a mature, unchanging area.
4. It’s my childhood Church when you had to stand outside on the steps if you got to Mass 5min late.
5. It is THE landmark building in Sheridan.
6. It would easily draw from Crafton, Greentree, Ingram, West End, Mckees Rocks, Roselyn Farms all the way to the Airport area.
7. Fr Kohler (bp now?) spent his early years there.
8. Still has a Catholic School.
9. The immediate neighborhood needs evangelising as it is now nearly 0% Catholic.
10. Finally, I fear that the Diocese is going to abandon this Church. In which case I would want to buy it, dis-assemble it and re-assemble it in Arlington TX. (pop. 300,000) which has 0.000 Traditional Designed Churches . You N-East folks are so fortunate in this regard.

I’m very familiar with Holy Innocents, I attended Langley and of course back in the day, Holy Innocents had a parish high school (whatever happened to parish high schools anyhow, there aren’t any around any more?)

A lot of folks would get lost going there, I’m afraid, if you’re not from the area.

In Pittsburgh’s East End, I’ll suggest Holy Rosary for Latin mass. The diocese I think is definitely considering getting rid of this gem, there is no regular mass schedule there at all at this point in time.

Designed by Ralph Adams Cram, a leading church architect who also designed East Liberty Presbyterian Church and Calvary Episcopal, Holy Rosary was the largest parish in the diocese just 50 years ago.

It has a school as well, its strategically located in the East End, and could draw from Homewood, East Liberty, Squirrel Hill, Shadyside, Penn Hills, Wilkinsburg, as well as the lower Allegheny Valley.

Its easy to find, accessible to public transportation, easy parking, very large adjacent population, as well as being a particularly fine building.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

TNT:

First, greetings and salutations to all of you PGH members.

Holy Innocents in Sheridan would be an ideal location in SW Pgh for a TLM.

1. It is nearly void of attendance under the NOM.
2. It is magnificant Gothic architecture.
3. Parking space (on / off the street is unlimited, in a mature, unchanging area.
4. It’s my childhood Church when you had to stand outside on the steps if you got to Mass 5min late.
5. It is THE landmark building in Sheridan.
6. It would easily draw from Crafton, Greentree, Ingram, West End, Mckees Rocks, Roselyn Farms all the way to the Airport area.
7. Fr Kohler (bp now?) spent his early years there.
8. Still has a Catholic School.
9. The immediate neighborhood needs evangelising as it is now nearly 0% Catholic.
10. Finally, I fear that the Diocese is going to abandon this Church. In which case I would want to buy it, dis-assemble it and re-assemble it in Arlington TX. (pop. 300,000) which has 0.000 Traditional Designed Churches . You N-East folks are so fortunate in this regard.

Recently I attended a couple Noon NO Masses at Sacred Heart in Shadyside (I work close by). It is perhaps the most beautiful Church I’ve ever been in. My first thought was “Now, this is a Church worthy of the Traditional Mass.” Any of you Pittsburghers familiar with Sacred Heart?

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Pandora:

As someone who only goes to the TLM I would prefer a TLM Parish per diocese. A traveling TLM is really not possible. You need a Church that caters to the TLM to really see it in it’s full glory. Few Churches to today have a unobstructed altar. You would miss to much with the table infront of the altar. True the TLM of Boston was put in a high crime area intentionally to discourage us. Now they are closing our vibrant Parish to put us in a worse neighborhood with no parking to make it hard for the elderly and large families which are most of them. You have to love the charity on the part of the ArchDiocese of Boston and the radicals here. The Latin Mass community are told we are irrelevant and either lump it where they are putting us or go back to our neighborhood parish. The German’s were told they have no purpose. holytrinitygerman.org/
How is this irrelevant

Kathy

This is HIGHLY divisive thinking, and precisely why some ordinaries do not allow the indult…

 

[Fogny]

otm:

I am not suggesting any false charity. Unless you have information as to why he did not allow the TLM, you annot presume that it was because he was against it “just because”, or because he was some sort of liberal.

As I said, he allowed it in the previous diocese; that would indicate that he at least at one point was open to granting the indult.

Further, it is an indult, a permission, and niether Canon Law nor any other rule requires that it be granted. It is to be granted for the builiding up of the faith; which by any logical thread would indicate that it could be withheld if there was risk perceived of more harm than good.

Nor am I suggesting any apathy. I am not apathetic about the issue; but I do consider that judging his motives without more facts flies in the face of the already public facts, to wit: at one point he had granted the indult; therefore there must be a reason that he now chooses not to, and name calling or the implication of name calling isn’t solving anything; in fact, it makes one appear to be more than a little petulant. The TLM is not a legal right; it is something which can be granted or withheld (otherwise it would not be an indult). To imply he has an agenda flies in the face of the fact that he had granted it before.

I was talking to a Bishop and mentioned that I attended the TLM and he said to me " Your not one of them are you?? I just tolerate Them". The Bishop will remain nameless, but it was NOT Bp Levada. Some do have an agenda.

Fogny

 

[A.Pelliccio]

Deus Lo Vult !

 

[jjwilkman]

judicame:

Latin, of itself, isn’t used as a vernacular language, so its meaning is set, a bit like ancient arabic or ancient Hebrew. The meaning of the words doesn’t change over time so there is no need to adapt them.

When mass is said in Latin throughout the world, a Catholic can go to mass anywhere and understand and be familiar with the liturgy, and know that literally those same prayers are being offered all over the world and also feel assured that those prayers are literally in communion with saints, martyrs and Catholic faithul through time.

It makes the church whole.

With vernacular you can find the balkanization of mass, sometimes within the same parish, particularly with people moving around more in cosmopolitan areas. Spanish speakers at one mass, English at another, perhaps French at another. When Latin is available, anybody can go anywhere. If they need a translation, all they need is a single hand missal of their choice.

Latin isn’t a hard language (at least the stems ) particularly if you speak French, Spanish, Italian or even English. There are lots of German words, and a bit of Celtic, in English, but mostly it comes from Latin through French. There aren’t that many words in the Ordinary of the mass said every week. Most of them are quite familiar, often from everyday words and phrases.

Problem is that Latin has become a bit of a oddity, an unfamiliar novelty, and to further confusion, the Novus Ordo in Latin is different again from the Traditional Latin Mass.

imagine going anywhere in the world and being able to communicate…

 

[pnewton]

jjwilkman:

imagine going anywhere in the world and being able to communicate…

Isn’t this a line from the John Lennon song?

I for one really enjoy and benefit from understanding the Mass. It would be an encumbrance to have to cross-reference everything from a Latin-to-English guide during every prayer and it would detract from my participation. I wonder how many parishoners would take to just zoning off during the Latin prayers, rather than work on learning the language.

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Truly, how can I have any figures when the phase in all these posts is that only 1% or 2% of the people WANT the TLM. You can’t tell that by the actual numbers of these masses offered

Actually, I believe you can tell a great deal by the numbers. Many states have 1 TLM Mass per weekend offered in one parish. There are several states than have none. Assuming an average of 50 parishes for the states that have only one, and assuming an average of three Masses on the weekend, that is 150 Masses that weekend, with 1 TLM Mass. That works out to six tenths of one pecent (.6%) of the Masses said. Assuming for the moment tht 1000 people attend the TLM (that’s a pretty big church, but I am going to give you the odds) and assuming that the rest of the Masses (149) average 400 people per Mass, that amounts to 59,600 people not attending the TLM; that would give you 1.68% attending the TLM. I doubt, however, that many, or even any of the churches having the TLM would even hold 1000; 650 is more likely, which would be closer to 1.01% of the people attending a TLM.

Anyone can take umbrage with those numbers, and point out specific instances where they are incorrect; but I suspect that I have given the edge to the TLM. I strongly suspect that the numbers are much lower. Two or three times on this forum I have offered the challenge for anyone to give even approximate figures of attendance at TLM’s nationwide. Interestingly, no one has risen to the challenge.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

te here, but the only way to find out what the average Pete in the Pew would want is to offer it.
What I’m stating is that one cannot judge the demand for any product when it offered in a limited amount AND at an inconvenient location.
To say that the TLM would not BE popular because it is limited now is not a targeted way to gathering facts. Miadia did the same here. He put it into a downtown parish hoping it would be a novelty and die out. It hasn’t.
If they had a traveling TLM (I know that’s silly), one would get a much more realistic view of who would WANT the TLM.

Actually putting it in a downtown church would make sense, simply because the downtown area usually is the geographical center, and the closest location for the largest number of people. I can’t speak to where he put it, as some downtowns have gentrified and are unsafe; others are in thriving urban centers. However, unless he said that he was hoping it would fade out, I think a value judgement is being made that is unsuported by the facts on the face of it.

Again, it is an indult because the rite has changed; it is no longer the norm. It will be up to those who want it to request it in significant enough numbers to show that there is truly a demand larger than what is being served. If those who like it so much would organize, contact other parishioners with an even-handed survey, maybe they could show that someone other than themselves wanted it. But currently, other than the reaction that some would like to attend one as a curiosity or an occasional alternative, bvery few people are agitating to have the TLM.

 

[otm]

Fogny:

I was talking to a Bishop and mentioned that I attended the TLM and he said to me " Your not one of them are you?? I just tolerate Them". The Bishop will remain nameless, but it was NOT Bp Levada. Some do have an agenda.

Fogny

I have no doubt some bishops have an agenda; but we may disagree that the agenda is not for the care of the souls entrusted to them. They and you would probably disagree whether souls are well cared for without the TLM. Remember that it is one thing to disagree with someone, even vigorously, and another to presume bad faith on the part of the one you disagree with. I am not intending to accuse you of this, but some of what you have said lends itself to that interpretation.

When the bishop speaks of “one of those”, before you take offense, you might want to walk in his shoes. I have been around enough Catholics whom I would categorize as somewhere between very conservative and ultra conservative to have had personal experience with their charity concerning the Mass, Vatican 2, etc. I use the word charity with more than a bit of tongue in cheek; these people don’t seem to have read much, if any of the New Testament; they are well beyond rude, judgemental, on occasion bordering on irrational, and not only their own worst enemy, but the enemy of those with whom they associate.

Please note, I am not making any statement or even supposition that there are many of this type among those who love the TLM. Howeve, the old adage that it takes only one rotten apple to ruin the whole barrel most certainly applies.

I have no doubts that he has taken real abuse from some on the fringe who would promote the TLM. The difficulty is that the vast majority seem to be fairly well satisfied with the Pauline rite; it is the norm, and those who wish the TLM are in a small minority, one that can’t seem to rid itself of the fringe element that thinks in terms that are boderline schismatic. It is that borderline fringe that causes this bishop, I would warrant, and others to react this way.

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

Two or three times on this forum I have offered the challenge for anyone to give even approximate figures of attendance at TLM’s nationwide. Interestingly, no one has risen to the challenge.

Again my friend this is not about attendance. This is about stating who WANTS the TLM. One young person already said he can’t drive there. How can he be counted not attending yet against WANTING?

. I can’t speak to where he put it, as some downtowns have gentrified and are unsafe; others are in thriving urban centers. However, unless he said that he was hoping it would fade out, I think a value judgement is being made that is unsuported by the facts on the face of it.

We are talking about downtown Detroit. The murder capital of the country. I know what I know about our Cardinal but cannot pass along the information.

It will be up to those who want it to request it in significant enough numbers to show that there is truly a demand larger than what is being served. If those who like it so much would organize, contact other parishioners with an even-handed survey, maybe they could show that someone other than themselves wanted it. But currently, other than the reaction that some would like to attend one as a curiosity or an occasional alternative, bvery few people are agitating to have the TLM.

Not in a downtown parish. One per Vicariate would do.
Why are you opposed to that?

I think you are overlooking the fact that our Cardinal will not give permission. There HAVE beem letter writing campaigns here. They are ignored.

 

[otm]

jjwilkman:

imagine going anywhere in the world and being able to communicate…

Actually, that is occuring more and more with English.

The problem with Latin is that almost no one understands it well enough to read and be able to translate, and even fewer speak it. There seems to be an underlying assumption that when the Mass was in all Latin, people understood it. In reality, very few did. That is why there were missals with a translation on the facing page.

When I attend a Maronite rite Mass, I have a missalette with a translation line by line of the Arabic and the Aramaeic. The parts of the Mass in those languages is always more difficult to follow than the parts in English.

 

[otm]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Again my friend this is not about attendance. This is about stating who WANTS the TLM. One young person already said he can’t drive there. How can he be counted not attending yet against WANTING?

I’m sorry, this probably is not a charitable reply, but here goes: OK, there are something like 2,000,000 Catholics in the US; that’s one.

I know that comes across a bit harsh, but I believe you are making an implied assumption for your own enjoyment and respect for the TLM that most people will feel the way you do, if they could just be exposed to it. I disagree with you.

Let me try it another way. Each year, I take the RCIA group to Mass at a Maronite rite church, a Byzantine rite Church, and when it was avilable, a Mass in the Pauline rite in Latin. Reactions were mixed each time; people were impressed, and a few were very impressed. All three Masses were about 20 to 30 minutes away from our parish, which means they would have had to travel about 10 to 15 minutes more to any one of them than to our parish.

Not one has returned to one of those Masses, and my survey is now about 7 years long. None of the parishes is in a dangerous area, none of them difficult to get to. And given that converts are notorious for liking the pomp and circumstance those Masses have as opposed to the Pauline rite in general in English, I find that interesting, to say the least.

{QUOTE=netmii(name removed by moderator)] One per Vicariate would do.
Why are you opposed to that?Why do you presume I am opposed? I am relatively neutral about it. If there truly was that much interest, I would not oppose it; I am all for prayer; the more the better. But I think you are overstating the interest in the extreme. After Vatican 2 and the changes from the TLM to the Pauline rite, surveys were taken; in general, semwhere between 80 and 95% approved of the changes. Those surveys were taken before the dissent that flowed after Humanae Vitae hit the fan, which ultimately led to the widespread dissent with authority in general, showing up in the approach to the rubrics as well.

The great majority approved of the changes, and I have yet to see that anything has changed significantly in those numbers.
netmil(name removed by moderator):

I think you are overlooking the fact that our Cardinal will not give permission. There HAVE beem letter writing campaigns here. They are ignored.

Do you have any verifiable information as to how many letters he received?

 

[netmilsmom]

otm:

I know that comes across a bit harsh, but I believe you are making an implied assumption for your own enjoyment and respect for the TLM that most people will feel the way you do, if they could just be exposed to it. I disagree with you.

My friend, I do not attend the TLM. I’ve seen it once on a DVD. There is no implied assumption for my own enjoyment.
I just believe that with the Charistmatic groups running our churches, people deserve another choice.
And while you sit in your Eastern Rite church, the modernist take our liturgy really you don’t have a dog in this fight.

 

[Kielbasi]

otm:

All three Masses were about 20 to 30 minutes away from our parish, which means they would have had to travel about 10 to 15 minutes more to any one of them than to our parish.

Very few people will drive a very long distance to get to mass on Sunday, unless they have to.

I’d like to see a survey of TLM participants and how far they actually do travel.

In Pittsburgh, I suspect that you would find proportionately a lot more attending St. Boniface from Spring Hill, Fineview, Observatory Hill, than you would from outlying areas, and more from the closer outlying areas in the North Hills than the further outlying areas.

 

[JNB]

The absolute numbers of people who attend a TLM is difficult to say, because its difficult to say what can be considered in those numbers. Of course all indults masses are included, but would SSPX, “independent” or even Sede chapels be considered? There are about 600 chapels in the US offering the TLM, some indult some schismatic.

Taking a broader view, what about parishes that offer NO masses that have traditional elements such as use of the altar rail, no EMHCs, no altar girls and a traditional hymnal? Some go as far as having the mass all in Latin and the priest facing the altar “ad orientem” as well? Not to mention Anglican Use. Many people who are receptive towrads tradition attend these parishes.

For example where I live, the weekly TLM has around 170 regular attendees, but not too far from it is a parish that celebrates its NO celebrated in a traditional manner that has 1500 or so attendees on the weekend. While it is a NO, it is far closer to the TLM than it is to the way a NO mass is typically celebrated.