Latin Mass vs New Mass

[James0235]

OutinChgoburbs:

Those two points having been made:

Why oh why oh why can’t people just be happy with the Mass they have as long as it is not performed in a slap-dash manner, follows GIRM, and doesn’t try to force one’s (priest’s, liturgist’s, musician’s) political (how they think the Church should be istead of relying on dogma and discipline) view on anybody, but worship Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity? It is not as if there is isn’t enough variety out there now.

Most would be happy with the Mass they have if it was not performed on a slap-dash manner, ffollows the GIRM, and didn’t force political views on people.

The problem (in my experience) is that it is almost impossible to find Masses where this is the case. It is no exaggeration on my part to say that the overwhelming majority of Masses I have attended in my life have been illicit.

It is no use trying to discuss liturgical abuses with the priests who are responsible for them. They either get angry or they begin lying - “Well, Cardinal Arinze specifically said in Redemptionis Sacramentum that we are both permitted and encouraged to use chalices made of glass”.

James

 

[Scotty_PGH]

OutinChgoburbs:

In all charity, you might not be old enough to have attended the seven-minute (or shorter) TLM some priests could exectue on a Sunday morning.

Please. This is a ridiculous exaggeration.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Wooo-weee! Now we got us a gen-yoo-ine 7 minute TLM! Hoo-rah!

It’s like that puny little fish ya caught on vacation. As the years go by, it gets bigger and bigger. In the case of the TLM, the Masses get shorter and shorter!

Who’ll give me 6 minutes? Do I hear 5? 4? What’s that ya say? 90 seconds?

Who’s gonna top that one??? :dancing:

Seriously. These claims of irreverent speed Masses in the bad old days get more and more absurd on this board. It’s getting to be like UFOs. A lot of people claim to see them but, unfortunately, no one can provide any proof.

 

[TNT]

Dr. Bombay:

Wooo-weee! Now we got us a gen-yoo-ine 7 minute TLM! Hoo-rah!

It’s like that puny little fish ya caught on vacation. As the years go by, it gets bigger and bigger. In the case of the TLM, the Masses get shorter and shorter!

Who’ll give me 6 minutes? Do I hear 5? 4? What’s that ya say? 90 seconds?

Who’s gonna top that one??? :dancing:

Seriously. These claims of irreverent speed Masses in the bad old days get more and more absurd on this board. It’s getting to be like UFOs. A lot of people claim to see them but, unfortunately, no one can provide any proof.

Well, I have a friend whose friend’s friend said that they used to “do” mass on motorcycles and had altar rampup boards. You couldn’t genuflect on entering the pew because you’d miss the gospel and the consecration.
They were really awful in those bad old days.
I didn’t actually see it, but I did see a priest come to church from another parish on a motorcycle, once, so it’s true, if my friend said so.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

Gee T, having a bad day?
Come on now, you know for a fact that I believe and adhere to everyone of the Popes encyclicals and I’m not a radical traditionalist. It’s interesting that you left out all the rest of the popes. …

Actually, infintely more interesting is the dirth of references to those popes’ writings, including excathedra, in the writings of the recent popes…even when they are writing on the very SAME subject.
Quite a novelty.

 

[Kielbasi]

Seriously. These claims of irreverent speed Masses in the bad old days get more and more absurd on this board. It’s getting to be like UFOs. A lot of people claim to see them but, unfortunately, no one can provide any proof.

I lived in the good (bad?) old days.

There were some pretty fast masses, but not any I’ve seen at any 7 minutes or anywhere close.

More like 20 minutes on a weekday, 30 for a Sunday.

Somewhere, sometime, some priest might have said a 7 minute mass, but I’d have to think that it would have been a mass with no servers and none of the faithful in attendance.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

TNT:

Well, I have a friend whose friend’s friend said that they used to “do” mass on motorcycles and had altar rampup boards. You couldn’t genuflect on entering the pew because you’d miss the gospel and the consecration.
They were really awful in those bad old days.
I didn’t actually see it, but I did see a priest come to church from another parish on a motorcycle, once, so it’s true, if my friend said so.

And what’s with all these people timing Mass? Isn’t that just as irreverent as a priest rushing through it?

It wasn’t 5 minutes or 10 minutes. It was *exactly *7 minutes. “I had a stopwatch. It was actually 6 minutes, 53 seconds.” :whacky:

 

[severinus]

A seven minute TLM? No way. Not possible. And I speak Latin very well and pretty quickly. The text simply cannot be spoken that quickly, even leaving aside the gestures and necessary motions.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Kielbasi:

I lived in the good (bad?) old days.

There were some pretty fast masses, but not any I’ve seen at any 7 minutes or anywhere close.

More like 20 minutes on a weekday, 30 for a Sunday.

Somewhere, sometime, some priest might have said a 7 minute mass, but I’d have to think that it would have been a mass with no servers and none of the faithful in attendance.

I even find 20 minutes a bit hard to picture. I attended Low Masses almost exclusively this Summer (at St B’s). It was like a furnace most weeks. On the hottest Sunday of the year, Father hurried through Mass, with no English version of the readings and no homily (this happened one time – I think there were a total of three Masses this Summer with no homily). Even this deliberately rushed Mass was still 45 minutes start to finish!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Scotty PGH:

I even find 20 minutes a bit hard to picture. I attended Low Masses almost exclusively this Summer (at St B’s). It was like a furnace most weeks. On the hottest Sunday of the year, Father hurried through Mass, with no English version of the readings and no homily (this happened one time – I think there were a total of three Masses this Summer with no homily). Even this deliberately rushed Mass was still 45 minutes start to finish!

Specific times may vary and 7 minutes sounds like an exageration (but I entered the Church as an adult and all I’ve known is the Mass of Paul VI, though I’ve attended one TLM Mass…and the whole thing was mumbled, never mind the Canon). “Rushed” is, however, a common complaint of pre-Vatican II Catholics that I’ve heard.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

JKirkLVNV:

Specific times may vary and 7 minutes sounds like an exageration (but I entered the Church as an adult and all I’ve known is the Mass of Paul VI, though I’ve attended one TLM Mass…and the whole thing was mumbled, never mind the Canon). “Rushed” is, however, a common complaint of pre-Vatican II Catholics that I’ve heard.

That’s interesting. I’ve actually spoken to a number of “pre-Vat2 catholics” (not simply going on second-hand hearsay) and not a one of them ever said anything about “rushed” Masses. What they did complain about was the Priest not facing the people, and the Mass containing Latin. Interestingly enough, Vatican II never said a thing about changing these.

So my point is that it was these same revolutionaries who, of their own accord (granted, the Vatican II documents left a number of loopholes), transformed the Mass into what it is today (your mileage may vary): a hand-holding, self-celebrating, Gather us in-singing, watch the priest while he chews the Host, four “eucharistic minister” ladies per 12 parishioners, lounge singer piano guy, Let’s try to guess where Jesus’ tabernacle is, shake each others hands, fest.

 

[bear06]

TNT:

Actually, infintely more interesting is the dirth of references to those popes’ writings, including excathedra, in the writings of the recent popes…even when they are writing on the very SAME subject.
Quite a novelty.

I’m of course going to refer you back to Pastor Aeternus. You’re quite right about the references. They show the continuing Tradition of the popes which some seem to think stopped at the pre-Vatican II popes.

 

[msproule]

I voted for both the first and second choices. I long for a normative Mass celebrated the way it was intended (see Assumption Grotto of Detroit, et al). However, if I were going to make the long drive from my home to either Assumtion Grotto Parish or the indult TLM downtown at St. Josephat, I would be faced with a difficult decision as they are both about the same distance away.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Scotty PGH:

That’s interesting. I’ve actually spoken to a number of “pre-Vat2 catholics” (not simply going on second-hand hearsay) and not a one of them ever said anything about “rushed” Masses. What they did complain about was the Priest not facing the people, and the Mass containing Latin. Interestingly enough, Vatican II never said a thing about changing these.

So my point is that it was these same revolutionaries who, of their own accord (granted, the Vatican II documents left a number of loopholes), transformed the Mass into what it is today (your mileage may vary): a hand-holding, self-celebrating, Gather us in-singing, watch the priest while he chews the Host, four “eucharistic minister” ladies per 12 parishioners, lounge singer piano guy, Let’s try to guess where Jesus’ tabernacle is, shake each others hands, fest.

I guess we don’t know precisely the same Catholics. Also, read Luther’s account of the Masses he witnessed in Rome…bit of an eye-opener. Yes, yes, I know he was a heretic, but that doesn’t of necessity make him a liar.

 

[TNT]

JKirkLVNV:

I guess we don’t know precisely the same Catholics. Also, read Luther’s account of the Masses he witnessed in Rome…bit of an eye-opener. Yes, yes, I know he was a heretic, but that doesn’t of necessity make him a liar.

Maybe not, but there’s about 500 other commentaries by Luther that DO make him a LIAR.
I’d need some collaboration from someone who is not a prolific liar. Then maybe you’d have something we could persue.

 

[TNT]

bear06:

I’m of course going to refer you back to Pastor Aeternus. You’re quite right about the references. They show the continuing Tradition of the popes which some seem to think stopped at the pre-Vatican II popes.

OMGosh: I used a non-existent word! (Actually, it’s in the 4th glass of Berringer’s reflections.)

Derth

\Derth, n. Dearth; scarcity.
PASTOR AETERNUS
For the Holy Spirit promised to the successors of Peter, not that they would unfold new doctrine which He revealed to them, but that, with His assistance, they would piously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith handed on through the Apostles.

Just let us know where the Apostles and their successors affirmed that Catholics and Jews worship the same God, I’m in.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

TNT:

Maybe not, but there’s about 500 other commentaries by Luther that DO make him a LIAR.
I’d need some collaboration from someone who is not a prolific liar. Then maybe you’d have something we could persue.

I beg to differ: there’s a difference between mistaken, tragically, foolishly mistaken, and lying. I’m not defending him, I’m simply pointing that out. AND the best defense (if you don’t want to commit the error of genesis, that something is untrue or faulty because of the person who uttered it or thought it up) would have been to point out it was pre-Trent. It’s out of a scholarly work, “Martin Luther: The Christian Between Life and Death,” by Marius. Luther doesn’t come off all that well and the Church does, in the author’s final analysis.

 

[TNT]

JKirkLVNV:

I beg to differ: there’s a difference between mistaken, tragically, foolishly mistaken, and lying. I’m not defending him, I’m simply pointing that out. AND the best defense (if you don’t want to commit the error of genesis, that something is untrue or faulty because of the person who uttered it or thought it up) would have been to point out it was pre-Trent. It’s out of a scholarly work, “Martin Luther: The Christian Between Life and Death,” by Marius. Luther doesn’t come off all that well and the Church does, in the author’s final analysis.

Well, you’ll just have to keep begging then.
Cause I’m kinda partial to that little 350 page book called The Facts about Luther. that say otherwise…waaaay past “mistake”.
Here is a typical site on Luther’s lying

 

[JKirkLVNV]

TNT:

Well, you’ll just have to keep begging then.
Cause I’m kinda partial to that little 350 page book called The Facts about Luther. that say otherwise…waaaay past “mistake”.
Here is a typical site on Luther’s lying

Okay, TNT, I read yours, now you read mine. I bet you can pick it up in the library: Richard Marius is the author. Interestingly enough, he brings up a all the things your site discussed. It’s not an apologia for Luther’s life.

 

[bear06]

Just let us know where the Apostles and their successors affirmed that Catholics and Jews worship the same God, I’m in.

So, what are you referring to here?