Latin Mass vs New Mass

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bear06:
Look, again, I have no problem with the Tridentine or those who prefer it. I don’t prefer it but I don’t think it’s bad. Why does ever difference have to be a bad thing? Argh! These arguments are just about as old as the Mass!
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This is precisely how I feel. Attend whatever liturgy you wish. Just stop the constant harping on the superiority of the one over the other. The Mass of Paul VI is promulgated for the whole Church, but an Indult can be granted for the TLM and I suppose the MPVI in Latin. If your bishop won’t grant an Indult, that’s not the fault of those of us who are attached to the MPVI. We’re sorry, we feel bad for you, we would hate to be in that position ourselves (and so, as I said earlier, many of us are supportive of the Indult, out of empathy), but don’t strain the sympathy/empathy we feel by disparaging the MPVI. If you want to criticize a lack of attention to the rubrics, fine, but stop dumping on the character of the MPVI. I tried to explain that earlier. It isn’t that we DON’T want you to attend the TLM, it’s just that we don’t want to attend it.
 
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bear06:
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! And what are we doing? Actively worshipping. It’s not like we’re participating in things that we shouldn’t. Are you saying that there is no participation in the Tridentine? We’re talking about the Canons being in silence. This is the huge difference. Let’s talk about sitting at the feet of Our Lord. Remember, Mary was listening to him. Again, this is what I love about the “NO”. We can kneel in front of Our Lord and witness this awesome miracle. I just prefer to do it with the sound on with no subtitles! 😉

Besides, if you’ll notice, Kirk said everything was soto voce not just the canons, etc. This, of course, is not the case at every Tridentine but it was at the one in which he participated.

Look, again, I have no problem with the Tridentine or those who prefer it. I don’t prefer it but I don’t think it’s bad. Why does ever difference have to be a bad thing? Argh! These arguments are just about as old as the Mass!
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What I am saying is that there is almost a culture shock when a person who has only known the Novus Ordo and they go to a Tridentine Liturgy because it does not need as much activity but it fosters a passivity and receptivity that is in stark contrast to the Novus Ordo. Remember that participation in the Liturgy is not supposed to be doing things per se but it means our intigration of our prayers into the prayer of the Eucharistic Prayer pirmarily.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
This is precisely how I feel. Attend whatever liturgy you wish. Just stop the constant harping on the superiority of the one over the other. The Mass of Paul VI is promulgated for the whole Church, but an Indult can be granted for the TLM and I suppose the MPVI in Latin. If your bishop won’t grant an Indult, that’s not the fault of those of us who are attached to the MPVI. We’re sorry, we feel bad for you, we would hate to be in that position ourselves (and so, as I said earlier, many of us are supportive of the Indult, out of empathy), but don’t strain the sympathy/empathy we feel by disparaging the MPVI. If you want to criticize a lack of attention to the rubrics, fine, but stop dumping on the character of the MPVI. I tried to explain that earlier. It isn’t that we DON’T want you to attend the TLM, it’s just that we don’t want to attend it.
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Point of Information: It requires an indult for the Novus Ordo to be celebrated in the vernacular (there is a universal indult that has been given).
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I do not believe what you’ve written is the case. The “so busy” of the Mass of Paul VI is simply making the responses. I didn’t get the impression that my attendance at the Tridentine was any more a “sitting at the feet of our Lord” than my attendance at the MPVI. I think this comparison rings a little false. It may be your opinion, but it hardly representative of either Mass, from my limited experience of the TLM and that of others who grew up with It (not everyone, in fact, is nostaligic about the TLM and most older Catholics of my aquaintance don’t miss it), and my experience in a reverently celebrated MPVI.
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This has merely been well appreciated advice that I have given many times for people that have first begun to attend the Tridentine Liturgy and the feedback has been appreciative thus far.
 
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mosher:
Point of Information: It requires an indult for the Novus Ordo to be celebrated in the vernacular (there is a universal indult that has been given).
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Yes, you’re quite right about that.
 
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mosher:
This has merely been well appreciated advice that I have given many times for people that have first begun to attend the Tridentine Liturgy and the feedback has been appreciative thus far.
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Well, then, thank you. I’m going back once more, to low mass.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Well, then, thank you. I’m going back once more, to low mass.
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The way that you describe the previous mass that you went to I would not be suprised if this one only lasted like 15 min or less. This would be an example of a true Irish Mass.
 
I read about half of this thread…
  1. It is a new Mass. The changes go far beyond “revised rubrics”
  2. Benedict XVI does have a “preference,” if you will. His preference of the French edition to Msgr. Gamber’s “The REform of the Roman Liturgy” reads: “What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of developemtn came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it-as in a manufacturing process-with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product.”
Everyone should read Gamber’s book. “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy: Its Problems and Background”

I probably won’t be checking back here, since email notification doesn’t work for me.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
If others want the TLM or Indult, I think it should be allowed (“generously applied”). I don’t want to have to attend anything other than the Mass of Paul VI. With the new ICEL translations, I hope some of this will die down. With more obedient bishops and priests coming up, I pray that these controversies will be put to rest.
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I pray that same prayer too! 😃

I can’t wait for the new English translation. Problem is, I’ve been teased with it for so long and still no sign of it, I’m beginning to think it’s a myth like bigfoot. :nope:
 
Dr. Bombay:
I pray that same prayer too! 😃

I can’t wait for the new English translation. Problem is, I’ve been teased with it for so long and still no sign of it, I’m beginning to think it’s a myth like bigfoot. :nope:
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Yes, it’s does seem like they’re stringing us along. I understand, however, that the Holy See has gotten a bit irritated with what they’ve produced up until a while ago and told them rather smartly that they better get it together.
 
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mosher:
What I am saying is that there is almost a culture shock when a person who has only known the Novus Ordo and they go to a Tridentine Liturgy because it does not need as much activity but it fosters a passivity and receptivity that is in stark contrast to the Novus Ordo. Remember that participation in the Liturgy is not supposed to be doing things per se but it means our intigration of our prayers into the prayer of the Eucharistic Prayer pirmarily.
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Come on now. This seems a little bit condescending. There are many wise, knowledgeable folks out there who even do things like the Spiritual Excercises who love the normative Mass. They’re not all country bumpkins who can’t grasp what the Tridentine is. They’re just happen to be people who are highly educated in the Faith and would give up their lives in an instant for it who don’t agree with you. It’s not that they are not contemplative people who can’t stand meditating on the mysteries of our Faith or can’t stand silence.

This kind of reminds me of the rad-trads who can look at someone like Mother Teresa or Pope John Paul and say things like “They’re wonderful but they just doesn’t get it” because they weren’t against the normative Mass. :rolleyes:
 
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bear06:
Come on now. This seems a little bit condescending. There are many wise, knowledgeable folks out there who even do things like the Spiritual Excercises who love the normative Mass. They’re not all country bumpkins who can’t grasp what the Tridentine is. They’re just happen to be people who are highly educated in the Faith and would give up their lives in an instant for it who don’t agree with you. It’s not that they are not contemplative people who can’t stand meditating on the mysteries of our Faith or can’t stand silence.

This kind of reminds me of the rad-trads who can look at someone like Mother Teresa or Pope John Paul and say things like “They’re wonderful but they just doesn’t get it” because they weren’t against the normative Mass. :rolleyes:
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Funny (emoticons aside), but I usually argue that to fully enter into the Novus Ordo one must be highly educated and at the Tridentine Liturgy one can be dumb as a door knob and still get it. I think you are reading my arguments in reverse - I am not composing “Stairway to Liturgical Heaven” however nice it may sound.
 
the traditional latin mass rules. i just went to a few this week and have to admitt that it is the closest you can get to being in heaven at times. between the gregorian chant and the rubics and vestments, you feel like you’re in connection with a tradition which has organically developed from the time of the apostles. it transends time and is just what we need in the catholic church today aside from the pastoral issues associated with it.

i’m very greatful that JPII of blessed memory allowed it’s liberal application. we are very fortunate to still have it as the new mass leaves much to be desired in most cases. it is a fabrication which while valid and just as efficacious, its implement can be considered an imprudent judgment on the church’s part.
 
oat soda:
the traditional latin mass rules. i just went to a few this week and have to admitt that it is the closest you can get to being in heaven at times. between the gregorian chant and the rubics and vestments, you feel like you’re in connection with a tradition which has organically developed from the time of the apostles. it transends time and is just what we need in the catholic church today aside from the pastoral issues associated with it.

i’m very greatful that JPII of blessed memory allowed it’s liberal application. we are very fortunate to still have it as the new mass leaves much to be desired in most cases. it is a fabrication which while valid and just as efficacious, its implement can be considered an imprudent judgment on the church’s part.
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Or a prudent one, depending on one’s perspective. It will more than likely continue to be the normative Mass of the Church (according to Cardinal Arinze, it isn’t going anywhere, thanks be to God).
 
An interesting link on the validity of the Mass of Paul VI (I realize no one has questioned the validity of it, but an interesting read on what TRENT did and didn’t do). I had no idea that Protestants were invited to Trent as well as VII! They didn’t show up.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/valmass.html
 
Or a prudent one, depending on one’s perspective. It will more than likely continue to be the normative Mass of the Church (according to Cardinal Arinze, it isn’t going anywhere, thanks be to God).
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i agree that it is subjective to some degree. but, i think the new mass needs to be celebrated according to B16’s “spirit of the liturgy”. i don’t think the tridentine mass is going anywhere either. i think it needs to be preserved so we will not go too far in our renovation of the liturgy.

i really love the old rite though, even if the new mass is more didactive. i really enjoy following along with the latin and in silence. when celebrated in a beautiful church with a good choir, it is an awesome experiance.
 
i think the new mass needs to be celebrated according to B16’s “spirit of the liturgy”.
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Ahhhh! Agreement! Ain’t it grand?
i really enjoy following along with the latin and in silence. when celebrated in a beautiful church with a good choir, it is an awesome experiance.
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These are the quotes I think are great. Why can’t we all just say what we like about the Mass we attend and fight the abuses as the Vatican calls them?
 
i really love the old rite though… i really enjoy following along with the latin and in silence.
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Well said… If you have never been to a Tridentine Mass, go to one!

It is my hope that, in time, every parish will have at least one Tridentine Mass said every Sunday (maybe even every day).
 
What I find amusing about the supporters of the Novus Ordo service is how they mock Traditional Catholics in a style that would fit very well on the Bob and Tom show…
 
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findinghumility:
What I find amusing about the supporters of the Novus Ordo service is how they mock Traditional Catholics in a style that would fit very well on the Bob and Tom show…
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I have no idea what a Bob and Tom show is, but I have noticed no one claiming invalidity for Traditional Catholics or posting undocumented pictures to ridicule traditional Catholics. The same is not true of the reverse.

If you could perhaps show an example of where this riducle you claim occurred, it would help.
 
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