Latin Mass

[AdDeum]

That is what I pray for every day. I think if the day ever comes when every Catholic can easily assist at either form, the Church will see a great renewal.

I too pray that the TLM can be offered in every parish. I agree that there will be “mutual enrichment” as our Holy Father has said which can and will bring about a great renewal.

 

[Ohana]

But would this happen? Would a “simple form” of the EF Mass be acceptable? Is it even allowed, other than in hardship situations like wartime or prison camps?

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from what I have seen here on CAF, one of the reasons people prefer the EF Mass is that it is so much more elaborate and in their opinion, beautiful. I’ve specifically seen the magnificent vestments mentioned. I can’t imagine that the faithful would be happy with anything unelaborate.

I really was not suggesting a simple form of the EF Mass. I was just trying to point out that the EF was said in some extraordinary circumstances, like the battle field. Yes the elegant vestments and gold objects are important to some, but smaller parishes are not going to be able to afford them. I grew up in a town of less than 1000 people - no way they could then or now afford these things for their church. Nevertheless, the Mass was celebrated with the best they could obtain. What I was saying is that to remember that the Mass is all important, not necessarily the vestments etc.

I felt sorry for our priests and deacon today. Wore those heavy capelike vestments. The abbreviated Roman (??) chasible might have been cooler !

 

[Cat]

I really was not suggesting a simple form of the EF Mass. I was just trying to point out that the EF was said in some extraordinary circumstances, like the battle field. Yes the elegant vestments and gold objects are important to some, but smaller parishes are not going to be able to afford them. I grew up in a town of less than 1000 people - no way they could then or now afford these things for their church. Nevertheless, the Mass was celebrated with the best they could obtain. **What I was saying is that to remember that the Mass is all important, not necessarily the vestments etc. **

I felt sorry for our priests and deacon today. Wore those heavy capelike vestments. The abbreviated Roman (??) chasible might have been cooler !

Boldface mine–I agree so whole-heartedly with what I have bolded in your post.

I try very hard to try to detach myself from the various externals when I go to Mass. The music doesn’t really matter, does it? It’s wonderful when there is good music that I like and the cantor and instrumentalists are especially skilled–but these things are not the Mass. Same for the priest–if he gives a real ripsnorter of a homily, great, but if he doesn’t–the homily is not the Mass. And if all the people around me are visibly focused on the Mass (which I really have no way of knowing, do I?), that’s wonderful–but Mass isn’t the people.

The Mass is the re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary.

Sometimes, I think that the best Mass would be the simplest Mass, with very little “smells and bells.” I know that’s not “the Catholic Way.” But surely we can keep our minds simple, can’t we, and try to keep our focus on Jesus during the Mass, and not allow ourselves to be ruffled by everything going on around us.

Sometimes when I read posts on CAF, I get the impression that the unfortunate poster missed the entire Mass because they couldn’t get past the opening hymn that offended them, or perhaps someone sitting near them was wearing an outfit that didn’t seem modest enough, etc. I’m trying not to be this way. I’m trying to keep in mind that human beings, although we are made in the divine image of God, are still human on this earth, and none of us are perfect yet, and everyone is at a different place in the journey to heaven. I try to look at Jesus and contemplate Him during Mass. I can look at people all day long, but I only get to be in His Presence for one very short hour (or half hour for daily Mass). I don’t want that time wrecked up because I can keep my eyes off of others, or make my ears ignore noise. (And of course, sometimes my stupid knees hurt, so sometimes, I distract myself!)

Anyway, not sure if others feel this way, but it’s where I am.

 

[johnthebaptist1]

It has but the English-speaking crowds have left in droves.

Your right about that. Amen

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Boldface mine–I agree so whole-heartedly with what I have bolded in your post.

I try very hard to try to detach myself from the various externals when I go to Mass. The music doesn’t really matter, does it? It’s wonderful when there is good music that I like and the cantor and instrumentalists are especially skilled–but these things are not the Mass. Same for the priest–if he gives a real ripsnorter of a homily, great, but if he doesn’t–the homily is not the Mass. And if all the people around me are visibly focused on the Mass (which I really have no way of knowing, do I?), that’s wonderful–but Mass isn’t the people.

The Mass is the re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary.

Sometimes, I think that the best Mass would be the simplest Mass, with very little “smells and bells.” I know that’s not “the Catholic Way.” But surely we can keep our minds simple, can’t we, and try to keep our focus on Jesus during the Mass, and not allow ourselves to be ruffled by everything going on around us.

Sometimes when I read posts on CAF, I get the impression that the unfortunate poster missed the entire Mass because they couldn’t get past the opening hymn that offended them, or perhaps someone sitting near them was wearing an outfit that didn’t seem modest enough, etc. I’m trying not to be this way. I’m trying to keep in mind that human beings, although we are made in the divine image of God, are still human on this earth, and none of us are perfect yet, and everyone is at a different place in the journey to heaven. I try to look at Jesus and contemplate Him during Mass. I can look at people all day long, but I only get to be in His Presence for one very short hour (or half hour for daily Mass). I don’t want that time wrecked up because I can keep my eyes off of others, or make my ears ignore noise. (And of course, sometimes my stupid knees hurt, so sometimes, I distract myself!)

Anyway, not sure if others feel this way, but it’s where I am.

Agree, it is the mass and nothing else that is important. I do love daily mass when it is very simple and there aren’t the smells and bells but I do love those things on Sunday.

Sometimes it is hard for me to not look around and see what others are doing, at those times I force myself to close my eyes or keep my eyes on my missalette and remind myself I am not the mass police. Just have to try and keep the Church in prayer.

 

[Cat]

Agree, it is the mass and nothing else that is important. I do love daily mass when it is very simple and there aren’t the smells and bells but I do love those things on Sunday.

Sometimes it is hard for me to not look around and see what others are doing, at those times I force myself to close my eyes or keep my eyes on my missalette and remind myself I am not the mass police. Just have to try and keep the Church in prayer.

I agree, it IS hard to stay focused on Jesus! I have problems when a family with many children are sitting near me. I keep staring at the little ones, thinking about how cute they, wondering how the parents find the time to do everything, wondering if they have a large house or small one, wondering what life would have been like for our family if we had had more children…and all of a sudden, everyone is standing up for the Creed and I realize that I have completely missed the homily! And I feel badly about that, since the whole point of the OF Mass is to “participate,” which I understand to mean “focus on what’s going on.”

And I agree with you about the simpler Daily Masses. I have a tendency during the “fancier” Masses to critique the music (because I play piano). I realize intellectually that Mass music is NOT a performance or a concert, but my mind still keeps saying, “He’s flat on that Psalm,” or “She needs to lighten up and sing in her head voice on those high notes.” Yikes.

I think Satan really takes advantage of any human weakness to get us to do everything BUT concentrate on the Mass. I like to think that the prayers essentially banish Satan and his evil spirits from the church during Mass, but I’m not so sure about that. I think that many of us invite him back in again when we start criticizing our fellow believers and picking apart the priest, the choir, the cantors, etc. Being aware of consistent abuses is one thing. But looking all around the congregation and spotting those who are dressed in a questionable way, or those who are chatting with their pals, or those who we KNOW shouldn’t be receiving Holy Communion because they fill in the blank–I think this behavior on our part crosses a line and leaves us open to being tormented by Satan during Masses.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Its because the younger generations ( me included ) were not being spiritually fed at the New Mass with all the abuses, bongos, and just circus atmosphere that the previous generation insisted was needed to draw us in. Well I am glad that proved them wrong.

I d on’t think the Latin Mass was ever banned except maybe in the early days there was some insistence by the Bishops to have the Mass said in the vernacular. As with any change, there was some resistence initially, so saying that it had to be done that way got us over the change and accustomed people to the OF rite.

Latin always remained the official language of the Church, so I do not see how the Mass in that language could be banned.

That being said, I would not cross the street to go to a Latin Mass. Been there, done that, never understood it really. I went to Latin Masses through parts of college, so it was a long time.

I think there are some of my generation who never accepted the change. They are happy it is being performed again. I understand from some of the younger folk, youth ministers and such, that the younger people are really excited about the ritual, mystery, and trappings of the Latin Mass… This is the same generation that is being enthralled by vampite movies, etc. My point being (NOT comparing the Mass with vampires etc) that there seems to be a hunger for the spiritual, mysterious, and ritual in the younger generations. I can understand that they may be drawn to some of the older forms and rituals of the Church. So I hope it continues for their sake. As long as I can still find an OF Mass that is so meaningful to me. I hope others can find a what is meaningful for them. After all, it is still the same great mystery that is being reenacted at each Mass form. Praise God.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Well I can see my comment touched a nerve I never meant to disturb. Let me see if I can clarify. I needed a little time to process this.

I did not mean to compare the current facination with vampires and all kind of weird stuff with the Mass, or to assign that interest to a whole generation. I was commenting that according to youth ministers I have spoken to, young people are thirsting for the mystery, spirituality, and ritual found in the TLM. If some of the former are moved to find what they are searching for in the TLM, I would call that a step in the right direction.

well it should have never been taken away in the first place

From your comments, I see that part of that attraction to your generation is in gaining something you feel you lost due to the changes after Vatican II. Some of that did happen I think. The change was great and a period of re-forming structures occurred. One was in redesigning some of the catechetical material for young people. You did not have Baltimore 1 and 2. I am startled at how little some of my younger family members know about the church. The new catechism is a good element of progress.

the new catechism reads like an insurance policy. that is one of the reasons the younger generation know so little. The baltimore catechism is much better it is direct and to the point.

I was a child of the 40’s and 50’s and was graduated from college in the early 60’s. I attended the TLM all my life up until then. While I understood what was happening on the altar in some respects, due to the dual columns in my missal and the teaching of the sisters about parts of the Mass, a great deal of it passed me by. I have commented that I never understood a word of the eucharistic prayer for example. I could say et cum spiritu tuo with the best of them, but what was I saying. ??? I found the OF Mass to be a great revelation, a joy to participate in, and a place where I could really come to know Jesus and appreciate what he did for me.

but then the mass turned into a show where the priest is the entertainer.

I did not have so much a sense of community - well in my home church I was with relatives and p eople I had known all my life, but we did not really participate together. While I was struggling to understand what was going on, others were just saying their rosaries. I had a sense that what was going on on the altar was irrelavant to some.

That is the atmosphere I am fearful of returning to. I read that some are learning the ecclesiastical Latin to more perfectly participate in the Mass. Frankly, I am a little too old to do that now. I am glad for you if it is meaningful and a joyful process for you.

wrong. if you its important to you then you can make the effort to do so.

I did not understand the comment abour being robbers. I don’t think I did or would do that knowingly.

God bless. Please accept my regret and apology for any hurt I caused you.

because the previous generation told us we were wrong to want to tradition and in some cases,latin,bells and other traditional stuff would NEVER EVER come back because vatican II said so. Some people look at me like I need a shrink because I like things traditional.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I think Satan really takes advantage of any human weakness to get us to do everything BUT concentrate on the Mass. I like to think that the prayers essentially banish Satan and his evil spirits from the church during Mass, but I’m not so sure about that. I think that many of us invite him back in again when we start criticizing our fellow believers and picking apart the priest, the choir, the cantors, etc. Being aware of consistent abuses is one thing. But looking all around the congregation and spotting those who are dressed in a questionable way, or those who are chatting with their pals, or those who we KNOW shouldn’t be receiving Holy Communion because they fill in the blank–I think this behavior on our part crosses a line and leaves us open to being tormented by Satan during Masses.

True, I think he does too. I guess we can criticize those around us or pray for those around us. Since criticism doesn’t do a lot of good, then we should pray for them when we see something we shouldn’t and hope they pray for us when they see us doing something we shouldn’t and try our best to spread our faith by our actions and our love.

 

[curlycool89]

the new catechism reads like an insurance policy. that is one of the reasons the younger generation know so little. The baltimore catechism is much better it is direct and to the point.

Most people don’t know this, but the Catechism was not meant to be the thing that everyone was suppose to read out of. It says so in paragraph 12: It is intended a as a resource for catechetics.

A resource, like an encyclopedia or a dictionary. The CCC is the universal catechism for all uses. The intention was that catechists were suppose to use the CCC as a starting point for redacting it down to something like the Baltimore Catechism, something to be used for actual catechesis.

The Compendium of the CCC and Youcat were the first serious efforts at actually implementing that. Most people treat the Catechism as a generic catechetical tool when that’s not what it’s actually meant to be.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

yes I realize that its supposed to be a resource. But it still reads like an insurance policy or legal docuement. The Baltimore Chatechism is much better.

Most people don’t know this, but the Catechism was not meant to be the thing that everyone was suppose to read out of. It says so in paragraph 12: It is intended a as a resource for catechetics.

A resource, like an encyclopedia or a dictionary. The CCC is the universal catechism for all uses. The intention was that catechists were suppose to use the CCC as a starting point for redacting it down to something like the Baltimore Catechism, something to be used for actual catechesis.

The Compendium of the CCC and Youcat were the first serious efforts at actually implementing that. Most people treat the Catechism as a generic catechetical tool when that’s not what it’s actually meant to be.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

yes I realize that its supposed to be a resource. But it still reads like an insurance policy or legal docuement. The Baltimore Chatechism is much better.

I don’t know about the insurance policy part, the CCC is a good resource but I really like the Baltimore catechism. We have learned so much from it.

 

[wasserfall]

Most people don’t know this, but the Catechism was not meant to be the thing that everyone was suppose to read out of. It says so in paragraph 12: It is intended a as a resource for catechetics.

A resource, like an encyclopedia or a dictionary. The CCC is the universal catechism for all uses. The intention was that catechists were suppose to use the CCC as a starting point for redacting it down to something like the Baltimore Catechism, something to be used for actual catechesis.

While true, that still doesn’t fully address the point.
The Roman Catechism was similarly written expressly for the clergy, and yet is much more accessible to the average Catholic.

 

[Cat]

yes I realize that its supposed to be a resource. But it still reads like an insurance policy or legal docuement. The Baltimore Chatechism is much better.

A few weeks ago, I read one of J.R. Education’s posts that said that the Baltimore Catechism is currently not approved by the Vatican for use.

I really trust J.R. Education (he’s a Franciscan), and I have no reason to believe that he would post something like this unless it was true. His posts are generally full of wisdom and free of rancor.

OTOH, I may have misunderstood his post.

So what’s the deal with the Baltimore Catechism? Approved? Not allowed? Or what?

Thanks.

 

[ProVobis]

A few weeks ago, I read one of J.R. Education’s posts that said that the Baltimore Catechism is currently not approved by the Vatican for use.

That’s news to me. My understanding is that it was used prior to Vatican II in English-speaking countries. The Catechism of Trent was more universal in usage. Neither to my knowledge has been disapproved.

That said, they are things relating to fasts and abstinence and such which do not apply any more. Canon Law is more authoritative.

 

[jam070406]

A few weeks ago, I read one of J.R. Education’s posts that said that the Baltimore Catechism is currently not approved by the Vatican for use.

I really trust J.R. Education (he’s a Franciscan), and I have no reason to believe that he would post something like this unless it was true. His posts are generally full of wisdom and free of rancor.

OTOH, I may have misunderstood his post.

So what’s the deal with the Baltimore Catechism? Approved? Not allowed? Or what?

Thanks.

Why would it not be approved or allowed???

 

[curlycool89]

While true, that still doesn’t fully address the point.
The Roman Catechism was similarly written expressly for the clergy, and yet is much more accessible to the average Catholic.

I can’t respond, because I’ve never accessed the Roman Catechism.

I don’t see why people have issues with the CCC. When I have more in-depth questions, I find that the CCC does a good job answering.

Why would it not be approved or allowed???

Maybe the information has been superseded by better doctrinal explanations.

It is also not one that was prepared by the Holy See for the universal Church, at most it was for the USA. It was probably put out of use when the new CCC came into existence so that there would be a common starting point for all catechisms throughout the Roman Catholic Church (so that, for example, we don’t have say the US and Polish Churches having disagreements because they’re coming from different starting points. A common starting point makes for more effective communication).

 

[Diana_Catherine]

A few weeks ago, I read one of J.R. Education’s posts that said that the Baltimore Catechism is currently not approved by the Vatican for use.

I really trust J.R. Education (he’s a Franciscan), and I have no reason to believe that he would post something like this unless it was true. His posts are generally full of wisdom and free of rancor.

OTOH, I may have misunderstood his post.

So what’s the deal with the Baltimore Catechism? Approved? Not allowed? Or what?

Thanks.

Here is what J.R.Education stated:

The Baltimore Catechism did not make that list for two reasons.

1. Everything in the Baltimore Catechism if found in the Catholic Catechism for the United States, which is a teaching version of the CCC.
2. The Vatican has many issues with the Baltimore Catechism, because at the last minute, the US Bishops decided to use a source that was not approved by the Vatican, as the basis for the Baltimore Catechism. The Baltimore Catechism never got the endorsement from the Vatican. I’m trying to remember if they wanted Bellarmine’s catechism and ended up with Butler’s or the other way around. In any case, there was such disagreement that there are several catechism with the name Baltimore Catechism. The newest one is the St. Joseph Edition, which is not a bad one. It has much more than the Baltimore Catechism that was used in many dioceses during the 1960s. This latest edition is organized like the original, but with documents from the different councils and references to the different Fathers of the Church and scripture, much like the CCC, but in simpler English.

In any case, the Vatican never endorsed the Baltimore Catechism, because there were so many with the same name, but they were different, that none was adopted as the official catechism for the USA. In reality, the differences are minor. It’s more a matter of organization and language. The content is the same.

I like the St. Joseph Edition and would recommend it to any catechist who does not have a degree in theology. It’s concise, but gives you resources to expand so that you’re not always doing the question and answer routine. The student can actually do research, without the need of being guided by a professional theologian who would know where to go look. The book tells you where to look.

I don’t use it, because I have access to a very extensive theological collection. But most catechists don’t. This is a perfect resource book to have in your bag.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

And here is a quote from the USCCB

old.usccb.org/catechism/general/q&a.shtml

What is a catechism.

A catechism is a text which contains the fundamental Christian truths formulated in a way that facilitates their understanding. There are two categories of catechism: major and minor. A major catechism is a resource or a point of reference for the development of minor catechisms. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is an example of a major catechism. The Baltimore Catechism is an example of a minor catechism.

I think what gets misunderstood is the reason people like the Baltimore catechism is that it is in a question and answer format and the answers are short and straight to the point. Kind of like, “just the facts.” Not that is a different catechism or teaches something different. It is just a very user friendly catechism.

The CCC is a much more in depth, more like a foundation for the rest.

Also from the USCCB:

"The Baltimore Catechism contained 421 questions and answers in thirty-seven chapters and gave unity to the teaching and understanding of the faith for millions of American Catholics. Its impact was felt right up to the dawn of the Second Vatican Council in 1962."

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/

Also here are some quotes of bishop approvals.

setonhome.org/baltimore-catechism/

In other words, IMO, it was never endorsed as the official Catechism of the Catholic church, it isn’t that the Vatican didn’t approve of it.

 

[Rich_C]

I think what gets misunderstood is the reason people like the Baltimore catechism is that it is in a question and answer format and **the answers are short and straight to the point. **Kind of like, “just the facts.” Not that is a different catechism or teaches something different. It is just a very user friendly catechism.

Sarto House publishes a big, red hardback book called *My Catholic Faith *that took the text of the Baltimore Catechism no 3 and **expanded each answer with more detailed explanations **in fine print. It also features scores of beautiful illustrations full of theology. It’s my most treasured book.

 

[Elisabeth51]

I also think that because of the diverse and very small world in which we live, COMMUNICATION, which involves “understanding” and “being understood” will become a major priority in the Catholic Church. I think that Protestants will continue to come home to Catholicism, and they will seek understanding of the faith rather than tradition

I know many of you disagree with me, and that’s OK. I won’t be around in 50 years. Some of you will be around, and if I’m wrong, you will be glad, and I won’t mind at all!

I’m only one ex-Protestant, but I love the TLM, prefer to attend EF Masses and one thing that lead me to the Catholic church was tradition and the worship of God rather than worship of the worship team in a plain building referred to as an auditorium. In my experience some Latin parishes are more friendly than others–in my old Diocese it was like a clique that you had to have an invitation to and where I am now they are very open and friendly.