Latin Mass?

[bkovacs]

The Anti-TLM crowd has a lot more against it than Latin (although that is ALWAYS part of the equation). Many HATE (I us that word after careful deliberation) having the priest facing ad orientem, and the whispered canon drives 'em nuts (actually, that bugs me, too). They don’t like the ‘boys only’ policy for servers. And what, o WHAT is a Mass without guitars and tambourines? Male chauvinist, elitist, Eurocentric, falderal! Right?

Problem is that the majority of Roman Catholics in this world are Anti-TLM. They prefer a more protestant way of worshiping. Get the Mass done in < 45 minutes and we are out of there. Allow extraordinary ministers to distribute communion, so we can speed up the Mass. Question, what was done before 1962. Did those parishiners in the Middle ages have extra ordinary ministers, so they could speed the Mass up. God forbid if we miss the knights and their sword events. No!, it wasn’t like that. The Orthodox Divine Liturgy I go to on Sundays lasts around 1hour and 45 min, but not one single person complains. And there are no extra ordinary ministers. Even the Oriental Orthodox churches do not have extra ordinary ministers. Majority of Roman Catholics don’t even know how eastern christians worship. Even the Copts and Ethiopians face East. There again the people dictate what the priests should do, not vice versa. The priest should know better. He tells the parishiners that it is our tradition to face east, not what the protestants do and face the people. And we are not turning our back to people, were facing east and the tabernacle, because it is tradition. As for Gregorian Chant, when was the last NO Mass that you went to that had it?.

 

[mercygate]

Problem is that the majority of Roman Catholics in this world are Anti-TLM. They prefer a more protestant way of worshiping. Get the Mass done in < 45 minutes and we are out of there.

Mass didn’t take any longer before the changeover. You often had more Masses on a Sunday (larger percent of Catholics coming to Mass) and the parking lot had to be cleared out . . .

Allow extraordinary ministers to distribute communion, so we can speed up the Mass.

Many FEWER people received Communion when the TLM was standard. MOST people at any given Sunday Mass (in my experience) did not receive.

Question, what was done before 1962. Did those parishiners in the Middle ages have extra ordinary ministers, so they could speed the Mass up.

Up until modern times, once a year would have been pretty normal for people to receive.

God forbid if we miss the knights and their sword events.

Don’t go THERE with me young man (or woman)! Ridcule the feathers and swords if that makes you happy, but the Knights have been and ARE providing highly valuable services for the Church as a whole, both in their charitable works and through their dissemination of outstanding catechetical materials.

No!, it wasn’t like that. The Orthodox Divine Liturgy I go to on Sundays lasts around 1hour and 45 min, but not one single person complains. And there are no extra ordinary ministers. Even the Oriental Orthodox churches do not have extra ordinary ministers. Majority of Roman Catholics don’t even know how eastern christians worship.

I am not sure how this fits into the present thread.

Even the Copts and Ethiopians face East. There again the people dictate what the priests should do, not vice versa. The priest should know better. He tells the parishiners that it is our tradition to face east, not what the protestants do and face the people.

This makes no sense at all and is not true either.

And we are not turning our back to people, were facing east and the tabernacle, because it is tradition.

Thank you for enlightening us. How else could we have known?

As for Gregorian Chant, when was the last NO Mass that you went to that had it?.

You have a big agenda here; some valid, some in your own head. Since you attend the Orthodox liturgy, why do you care about the implementation of the TLM in the West. The last time I heard Gregorian Chant at a NO Mass? Yesterday.

 

[bkovacs]

Mass didn’t take any longer before the changeover. You often had more Masses on a Sunday (larger percent of Catholics coming to Mass) and the parking lot had to be cleared out . . .

Many FEWER people received Communion when the TLM was standard. MOST people at any given Sunday Mass (in my experience) did not receive.

Up until modern times, once a year would have been pretty normal for people to receive.

Don’t go THERE with me young man (or woman)! Ridcule the feathers and swords if that makes you happy, but the Knights have been and ARE providing highly valuable services for the Church as a whole, both in their charitable works and through their dissemination of outstanding catechetical materials.

I am not sure how this fits into the present thread. This makes no sense at all and is not true either.Thank you for enlightening us. How else could we have known?

You have a big agenda here; some valid, some in your own head. Since you attend the Orthodox liturgy, why do you care about the implementation of the TLM in the West. The last time I heard Gregorian Chant at a NO Mass? Yesterday.

As for knights. I meant Knights from the Middle Ages. You know the real ones, that actually fought in the Crusades. And had a title of Sir!.

I have no agenda!.
And I am not a young man. I’m an adult!
And what would be in my head?.

 

[Ad_Deum]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

The Latin Mass is the traditional liturgy of the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II. It was celebrated by the church for about 1,000+ years, and many of the church’s saints that we recognized prayed this venerable Mass. Though I don’t really care if the language use in the Traditional Mass is Latin or English, one thing I am against about the Church’s doing is when they completely changed it into a new one which is parallel to the Protestant services.
I love this Latin Mass because I feel at home everytime I prayed and attend it, it is a treasure of the Church that we should keep and cherish because it is truly a Catholic identity.

Pax
Laudater Jesus Christus
Instaurare omnia in Christo

 

[latinmasslover]

Many FEWER people received Communion when the TLM was standard. MOST people at any given Sunday Mass (in my experience) did not receive.

**Few **people received because *many *people had an actual sense of sin and knew *Who *was being received. The Sacrifice of the Mass was taken seriously, and receiving Communion was often allowed at the discretion of Jesus Christ, through the priest. It was a privilege, not a right.

 

[mercygate]

**Few **people received because *many *people had an actual sense of sin and knew *Who *was being received. The Sacrifice of the Mass was taken seriously, and receiving Communion was often allowed at the discretion of Jesus Christ, through the priest. It was a privilege, not a right.

:tiphat:

 

[bear06]

The last time I heard Gregorian Chant at a NO Mass?

Every Sunday and one Sunday a month it’s my kids that are singing it!

 

[LilyM]

**Few **people received because *many *people had an actual sense of sin and knew *Who *was being received. The Sacrifice of the Mass was taken seriously, and receiving Communion was often allowed at the discretion of Jesus Christ, through the priest. It was a privilege, not a right.

And it was also Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, speaking through Pope St Pius X, who encouraged daily Communion. While still taking the Sacrifice of the Mass (and the need to be in a state of grace to receive) just as seriously,

No, communion isn’t a right, but it IS a laudable practice to avail ourselves of its graces as often as we are able. As a reparation for those who receive Him unworthily if nothing else.

 

[latinmasslover]

And it was also Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, speaking through Pope St Pius X, who encouraged daily Communion. While still taking the Sacrifice of the Mass (and the need to be in a state of grace to receive) just as seriously,

No, communion isn’t a right, but it IS a laudable practice to avail ourselves of its graces as often as we are able. As a reparation for those who receive Him unworthily if nothing else.

I totally agree I should have made my emphasis clear, which is that daily reception of Holy Communion is encouraged, but regular Confession is discouraged, not encouraged at best. We have long Communion lines and short Confession lines…That’s a problem, as I’m sure everyone here would agree. Better to not receive and make a spiritual communion than to receive sacrilegiously. That was all I was getting at.

 

[Silver_Thread]

No one is denying that the prose is far more beautiful. It’s also more beautiful in the vernacular. Given the choice between worshipping in a beautiful ritual whose language I don’t understand and worshipping in a less beautiful, but equally orthodox ritual in which I understand the language, I’m going to choose the latter over the former. I’m willing to bet that most people feel that way.

Sorry dear friend, the venacular does not come near being the same. Equally orthodox? WOW, that’s a stretch! The Missal gives you the translation. And it’s a true translation, not some gimmicked one.

 

[palmas85]

And it was also Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, speaking through Pope St Pius X, who encouraged daily Communion. While still taking the Sacrifice of the Mass (and the need to be in a state of grace to receive) just as seriously,

No, communion isn’t a right, but it IS a laudable practice to avail ourselves of its graces as often as we are able. As a reparation for those who receive Him unworthily if nothing else.

He did not encourage daily communion for those in a state of Mortal Sin, which, I know for a fact that many who receive today are.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Sorry dear friend, the venacular does not come near being the same. Equally orthodox? WOW, that’s a stretch! The Missal gives you the translation. And it’s a true translation, not some gimmicked one.

This is illogical! If it’s a “true translation,” then what in the name of goodness and mercy can it harm to USE that translation?

And I’m sorry, the OF and the EF ARE equally orthodox. The Church cannot propose to the faithful anything else.

 

[bear06]

He did not encourage daily communion for those in a state of Mortal Sin, which, I know for a fact that many who receive today are.

Highly unlikely that there is anything remotely resembling “many” that go to daily Mass that are receiving in a state of mortal sin. Daily Mass goers are quite a different breed from the normal person in the pews so I hardly think that you “know this for a fact”. Usually the same people that appear for daily Mass are the same people that actually believe in confession.

 

[bear06]

Problem is that the majority of Roman Catholics in this world are Anti-TLM. They prefer a more protestant way of worshiping. Get the Mass done in < 45 minutes and we are out of there. Allow extraordinary ministers to distribute communion, so we can speed up the Mass. Question, what was done before 1962. Did those parishiners in the Middle ages have extra ordinary ministers, so they could speed the Mass up. God forbid if we miss the knights and their sword events. No!, it wasn’t like that. The Orthodox Divine Liturgy I go to on Sundays lasts around 1hour and 45 min, but not one single person complains. And there are no extra ordinary ministers. Even the Oriental Orthodox churches do not have extra ordinary ministers. Majority of Roman Catholics don’t even know how eastern christians worship. Even the Copts and Ethiopians face East. There again the people dictate what the priests should do, not vice versa. The priest should know better. He tells the parishiners that it is our tradition to face east, not what the protestants do and face the people. And we are not turning our back to people, were facing east and the tabernacle, because it is tradition. As for Gregorian Chant, when was the last NO Mass that you went to that had it?.

The last Mass I attended with chant was Sunday.

And, again with the majority of Catholics are anti-TLM. First of all, the majority of Catholics, as of yet, haven’t any exposure to the TLM. If they were exposed, there might be some that don’t like it and some that do. The only truly “haters of the TLM” are raving liberals who hate anything (they hate my Mass) resembling traditional. I know hoards of people who attend the random church down the street that have little to know position on the TLM. Most take a “to each his own” attitude. They certainly don’t run around going “The TLM is coming! The TLM is coming!” I seriously wish these wild “everybody hates the TLM” theories woulds top popping up

BTW, the average OF around here takes 1 1/2 hours or longer (probably due to population) and I don’t see anyone whining about it here.

 

[I_Believe]

**Few **people received because *many *people had an actual sense of sin and knew *Who *was being received. The Sacrifice of the Mass was taken seriously, and receiving Communion was often allowed at the discretion of Jesus Christ, through the priest. It was a privilege, not a right.

You are not insinuating that these backward folks actually were pious Catholics are you ? My goodness. You mean that Catholics were at one time raised this way ?

 

[I_Believe]

Highly unlikely that there is anything remotely resembling “many” that go to daily Mass that are receiving in a state of mortal sin. Daily Mass goers are quite a different breed from the normal person in the pews so I hardly think that you “know this for a fact”. Usually the same people that appear for daily Mass are the same people that actually believe in confession.

You have a valid point there. The daily attendees are to be admired.

But what about Sunday ? (I know, palmas said daily, not Sunday) I’ve sat in the back of the church at many parishes on Sunday and noticed very few don’t receive communion. Surely there are quite a few who receive a bit too liberally, most of which I’d bet don’t understand the concept of Spiritual Communion. I bet a lot of these folks truly don’t know better.

JMO, no way I can back it up of course, but I firmly beleive it.
.

 

[jabelltulsa]

I am glad to hear this. I wish more of your confreres shared your views. And if the TLM were in the vernacular, I’d go. The English translations of it that I’ve read are beautiful. Until then, I*** don’t see why I would want to trade the Mass I attend (in my language, audibly offered, and generally very reverent) for the TLM***. But I wouldn’t deny anyone else the opportunity.

Okay, I am trying to hold my tongue here, but alas, I am going to fail. Let me share my story on TLM:

My whole life I have attended the TLM (Deo Gratias). The only time I attended NO was when I was away at military school. The NO was the only Mass offered. During that time I so missed the reverence, the Consecration pointed to Christ, rather than the people, the wonderful Benedictions, the High Mass, my Absolution in Latin after Confession, the Tantum Ergo, etc. I was unable to get this except when I went home.

Now, when I was home, we attended a SSPX Mass. I don’t want to bring up the whole SSPX discussion, here, but it is important to my story (I now attend FSSP). The SSPX Mass was the only TLM Mass that was available. My family firmly believed that the TLM was important. It came at a cost, though. Mass times changed often (and became very difficult to attend), priests were performing 3 Masses a day in different cities, traveling so much that several of them had health problems due to stress, near alienation from our fellow Catholics, due to our affiliation with SSPX, and the list goes on. It was very difficult on my parents to explain to me why they believed the way they believed. Also, it was very difficult on me to go to Mass @ 8:00p on a Sunday, when I was hungry, tired, I had homework to finish, studying to do, etc. It was very difficult to explain to my Catholic friends why they didn’t see me at their Church.

Our Church was small, but it had the most wonderful, humble, pious people. Most of them were very poor, and we had to take care of each other. When we had dinners, and get-togethers, they were simple, and very small.

I did my best to keep my fellow NO Catholic family in the most charitable part of my heart. At times I was resentful, though. The hardest part was being Catholic, and not being recognized as a Catholic by some due to SSPX. We so loved the TLM, though. We feel that the TLM is right for us. For many years (1960 - MP) the TLM was nearly unavailable. Now times have changed and I am happy.

The reason I write this, is that I believe you are being very defensive about TLM vs. NO. I believe that NO Masses have been and continue to be valid. There is no question about this. Try and see it from my perspective, though. For many years, TLM was held back from us. We had to sacrifice to get it.

I am happy for you that you have a good parish, and that you love the Mass. Know that I do too.

Don’t be so concerned with language. I’m not. It may seem that way, but I am more concerned with reverence. I would ask that you attend a TLM; maybe even a few. Try the High Mass. See what care the priest takes with the Blessed Sacrament. Follow along with the Missal (I don’t even need one now, and haven’t since I was very young - no language problem here).

My hope is not that we do away with the vernacular Mass. My hope is that we return to reverence. This is why I love the TLM so very much.

I hope my post doesn’t sound mean spirited or angered. I just have a history with this, and I get a bit passionate. See, for me, being Catholic, means being Traditional, which means keeping with the oldest forms of Worship. This is the TLM for me.

Let me end with this - God Bless you … pray for me, and I’ll pray for you!

 

[palmas85]

Highly unlikely that there is anything remotely resembling “many” that go to daily Mass that are receiving in a state of mortal sin. Daily Mass goers are quite a different breed from the normal person in the pews so I hardly think that you “know this for a fact”. Usually the same people that appear for daily Mass are the same people that actually believe in confession.

Yes, i do know for a fact at least in my Parish which I would venture is not much different than others.

 

[latinmasslover]

Okay, I am trying to hold my tongue here, but alas, I am going to fail. Let me share my story on TLM:

My whole life I have attended the TLM (Deo Gratias). The only time I attended NO was when I was away at military school. The NO was the only Mass offered. During that time I so missed the reverence, the Consecration pointed to Christ, rather than the people, the wonderful Benedictions, the High Mass, my Absolution in Latin after Confession, the Tantum Ergo, etc. I was unable to get this except when I went home.

Now, when I was home, we attended a SSPX Mass. I don’t want to bring up the whole SSPX discussion, here, but it is important to my story (I now attend FSSP). The SSPX Mass was the only TLM Mass that was available. My family firmly believed that the TLM was important. It came at a cost, though. Mass times changed often (and became very difficult to attend), priests were performing 3 Masses a day in different cities, traveling so much that several of them had health problems due to stress, near alienation from our fellow Catholics, due to our affiliation with SSPX, and the list goes on. It was very difficult on my parents to explain to me why they believed the way they believed. Also, it was very difficult on me to go to Mass @ 8:00p on a Sunday, when I was hungry, tired, I had homework to finish, studying to do, etc. It was very difficult to explain to my Catholic friends why they didn’t see me at their Church.

Our Church was small, but it had the most wonderful, humble, pious people. Most of them were very poor, and we had to take care of each other. When we had dinners, and get-togethers, they were simple, and very small.

I did my best to keep my fellow NO Catholic family in the most charitable part of my heart. At times I was resentful, though. The hardest part was being Catholic, and not being recognized as a Catholic by some due to SSPX. We so loved the TLM, though. We feel that the TLM is right for us. For many years (1960 - MP) the TLM was nearly unavailable. Now times have changed and I am happy.

The reason I write this, is that I believe you are being very defensive about TLM vs. NO. I believe that NO Masses have been and continue to be valid. There is no question about this. Try and see it from my perspective, though. For many years, TLM was held back from us. We had to sacrifice to get it.

I am happy for you that you have a good parish, and that you love the Mass. Know that I do too.

Don’t be so concerned with language. I’m not. It may seem that way, but I am more concerned with reverence. I would ask that you attend a TLM; maybe even a few. Try the High Mass. See what care the priest takes with the Blessed Sacrament. Follow along with the Missal (I don’t even need one now, and haven’t since I was very young - no language problem here).

My hope is not that we do away with the vernacular Mass. My hope is that we return to reverence. This is why I love the TLM so very much.

I hope my post doesn’t sound mean spirited or angered. I just have a history with this, and I get a bit passionate. See, for me, being Catholic, means being Traditional, which means keeping with the oldest forms of Worship. This is the TLM for me.

Let me end with this - God Bless you … pray for me, and I’ll pray for you!

I couldn’t agree more. Very well-spoken, truthful and charitable.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, i do know for a fact at least in my Parish which I would venture is not much different than others.

You know the state of the majority of souls in your parish? Then you know more than anyone bar God himself - even your parish priests wouldn’t know who’s been to confession elsewhere, for example.