Latin pronunciation

[JSSebastianoP]

I’m a bit confused - do you mean you don’t know why the ecclesiastical pronunciation would not be taught in schools?

Correct. In the same way we Catholics like to joke aboke King-James-onlyism there are some teachers who would prefer to use only the Classical pronunciation.

I think for reciting Virgil, or Cicero, it would be anachronistic to use the Italian pronunciation - the classical would be best.

I suppose it would be but it depends on what level of historical accuracy one is aiming for. But I really think that classes chould be split. “Modern/Mideival/Ecclesiastical” and “Classical” Latin should be two seperate courses, in my opinion with a potential third and fourth course for “Vulgar Latin” and “Old Latin”. Some minor aspects of vocabulary as well as orthography or different. Use of “ę” in Mideival texts for “æ” is one example in orthography.

When I studied Latin, we began with classical Rome and used the classical pronunciation. As we went on and read medieval sources, we learned the ecclesiastical accent. But even then, we never learned a German or French pronunciation, which would really have been best for reading authors from those places. Even ecclesiastical Latin is strictly speaking not the perfect choice for all medieval Latin texts.

When Iearned Italian, I didn’t start with the evolution of Italian from Vulgar Latin - we jumped into modern Italian. I mean, when you started learning Latin you didn’t start all the way back with masculine case -os nominative and -om accusative (from Old Latin). As for Ecclesiastical Latin being “imperfect” I see your point. Everyone has to start somewhere, and since there is such a divide, why not separate the classes?

Pax.

 

[ibkc]

I’m a bit confused - do you mean you don’t know why the ecclesiastical pronunciation would not be taught in schools?

I think for reciting Virgil, or Cicero, it would be anachronistic to use the Italian pronunciation - the classical would be best.

When I studied Latin, we began with classical Rome and used the classical pronunciation. As we went on and read medieval sources, we learned the ecclesiastical accent. But even then, we never learned a German or French pronunciation, which would really have been best for reading authors from those places. Even ecclesiastical Latin is strictly speaking not the perfect choice for all medieval Latin texts.

Agreed. I am in the process of studying Latin, in preparation to start my son on a Latin-centered homeschool curriculum, and the way I am approaching it is to learn the pronunciation for both classical and ecclesiastical and use whatever is appropriate for the situation. It really isn’t that big of a deal.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Do any priests performing the Tridentine Mass use classical rather than ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation?

It would seem that some might, if this poster’s recollection is accurate: [post=1621862]Agnus Dei in Latin #17[/post]. But I expect it is the exception, and probably few and far between (just guessing :twocents: )

tee

 

[JMJ_coder]

No - historical linguistics as a field of study became more advanced so we could reconstruct it. That’s why it’s also called the “Restored pronunciation”. (I won’t go into details because I don’t want to derail the thread.)

Pax.

Please, do go on. If you feel this is too far off-topic, PM me.

 

[Bluegoat]

When Iearned Italian, I didn’t start with the evolution of Italian from Vulgar Latin - we jumped into modern Italian. I mean, when you started learning Latin you didn’t start all the way back with masculine case -os nominative and -om accusative (from Old Latin). As for Ecclesiastical Latin being “imperfect” I see your point. Everyone has to start somewhere, and since there is such a divide, why not separate the classes?

Pax.

That is more or less what happened.

First year Latin was mostly grammar, using classical Latin sources like Cicero. We learned the classical pronunciation.

Second year we had more variety, some more Caesar (All of Gaul is divided into three parts…), but then we spent a fair bit of time on some medieval stuff, including some lovely hymns by Saint Thomas, and a bit of 17th century stuff. We learned ecclesiastical pronunciation for Thomas, and discussed regional accents, but were still pretty immersed in grammar at that point.

Third year - good Latin students studied Virgil. Less accomplished ones (myself) took Medieval Latin Philosophers. We read the Itinerarium Mentis in Deum and the Proslogion. Ecclesiastical Latin again.

And then people who were really serious would go into wherever their studies took them, primitive Latin or 19th c. legal stuff or whatever.

 

[Langdell]

That is more or less what happened.

First year Latin was mostly grammar, using classical Latin sources like Cicero. We learned the classical pronunciation.

Second year we had more variety, some more Caesar (All of Gaul is divided into three parts…), but then we spent a fair bit of time on some medieval stuff, including some lovely hymns by Saint Thomas, and a bit of 17th century stuff. We learned ecclesiastical pronunciation for Thomas, and discussed regional accents, but were still pretty immersed in grammar at that point.

Third year - good Latin students studied Virgil. Less accomplished ones (myself) took Medieval Latin Philosophers. We read the Itinerarium Mentis in Deum and the Proslogion. Ecclesiastical Latin again.

And then people who were really serious would go into wherever their studies took them, primitive Latin or 19th c. legal stuff or whatever.

Wow! You went to an excellent school. My high school (a public school in NJ that has always been considered quite good on the whole) had only one Latin teacher, and after the introductory level, there weren’t enough interested students (just 2 or 3) to populate more than one class. We never ventured into medieval or later works. Then, when I went to college, I studied classics and so, again, did not work with the later materials.

.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Please, do go on. If you feel this is too far off-topic, PM me.

Not addressed to me, but here is a short article that offers some evidence for the restored classical pronunciation: Veni Vidi Vici and All That. The author, Peter Jones, is one of my favorite scholars.

…But I still speak with an ecclesiastical accent.
tee

 

[Bluegoat]

Wow! You went to an excellent school. My high school (a public school in NJ that has always been considered quite good on the whole) had only one Latin teacher, and after the introductory level, there weren’t enough interested students (just 2 or 3) to populate more than one class. We never ventured into medieval or later works. Then, when I went to college, I studied classics and so, again, did not work with the later materials.

.

Ah, this was in university. (My high school, alas, had no Latin.) I also studied classics, but my department had a particular interest in how the philosophy of the classical world interacted with the history of thought in the West. So we read a lot of Christian stuff, up to, roughly, the Renaissance. It depended on what the profs were doing. The Latin students did sometimes do much later stuff for their own particular work, but they weren’t always classics people.

 

[moon1234]

Ah, this was in university. (My high school, alas, had no Latin.) I also studied classics, but my department had a particular interest in how the philosophy of the classical world interacted with the history of thought in the West. So we read a lot of Christian stuff, up to, roughly, the Renaissance. It depended on what the profs were doing. The Latin students did sometimes do much later stuff for their own particular work, but they weren’t always classics people.

Most people forget that even in the first century that “Church latin” was already highly styalized. It was specifically made to sound Holy and unlike the vulgar language of the street. Classical latin would never have been heard in the Church in the first few centuries. You would be more likely to hear Greek that classical Latin.

The ONLY place you will hear latin spoke on a weekly basis (Outside of Latin club. Come on their right next door to the chess and glee clubs) is in the Catholic Church. If you really want to SPEAK latin then learn Church latin. If you want to experiment with your university professor then learn classical Latin.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Most people forget that even in the first century that “Church latin” was already highly styalized. It was specifically made to sound Holy and unlike the vulgar language of the street.

*Forget!? *I have never *heard *of such a thing! Do you have some support for this claim?

Classical latin would never have been heard in the Church in the first few centuries. You would be more likely to hear Greek that classical Latin.

Classical Latin was indeed *dead *within the first few centuries, and Greek would have been much more likely to be heard in the liturgy.

tee

 

[JSSebastianoP]

*Forget!? *I have never *heard *of such a thing! Do you have some support for this claim?

Same here.

Pax.

 

[Breviarylover]

Do any priests performing the Tridentine Mass use classical rather than ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation? Because I was a classics major as an undergrad, ecclesiastical pronunciation has always sounded very odd to me. It would be nice to hear a mass said in Latin the way the ancients (supposedly) pronounced it.

For those who may not know, ecclesiastical pronunciation pronounces Latin pretty much the same way as Italian. Classical pronunciation is quite different – e.g., cs are always hard, the g is pronounced in gn combinations, js are pronounced like ys, and so on.

.

I’ve always heard of them using the ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation.

 

[Bluegoat]

Most people forget that even in the first century that “Church latin” was already highly styalized. It was specifically made to sound Holy and unlike the vulgar language of the street. Classical latin would never have been heard in the Church in the first few centuries. You would be more likely to hear Greek that classical Latin.

The ONLY place you will hear latin spoke on a weekly basis (Outside of Latin club. Come on their right next door to the chess and glee clubs) is in the Catholic Church. If you really want to SPEAK latin then learn Church latin. If you want to experiment with your university professor then learn classical Latin.

I’m not sure what your point is? That the whole of the classical Roman period isn’t worth bothering with? What in the world do you mean by experimenting with university professors? Learning? Reading Virgil? I can tell you now, if you want to understand Augustine’s City of God you darn well ought to be comfortable with the Aeneid.

I do hear ecclesiastical Latin weekly in my Anglican Church - the local Catholic Churches don’t use it at all.

 

[Javl]

Putting my two cents worth in the discussion, Liturgical Latin is much easier on the ears
than classical and also much easier to follow for those who speak one of the romance languages. If classical Latin were to be used, then we might as well revert to the all of the
classical languages that were originally used in the early church ( Aramaic, Slovonic, etc. )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[moon1234]

I’m not sure what your point is? That the whole of the classical Roman period isn’t worth bothering with? What in the world do you mean by experimenting with university professors? Learning? Reading Virgil? I can tell you now, if you want to understand Augustine’s City of God you darn well ought to be comfortable with the Aeneid.

I do hear ecclesiastical Latin weekly in my Anglican Church - the local Catholic Churches don’t use it at all.

I was drawing on my interactions with University professor types who like to tell people that the latin used in the eraly church was the same as the vulgar Latin. I was told by a Priest of the ICRSS that early church latin was highly stylized and was not the same as spoke latin the street. He said everyone could read the words, but the spoken sound of the words differed based on region, etc.

In any event I was told that “The Catholic church does not know how to properly pronounce Latin” by a local university professor. He was of the opinion that Classical latin was the ONLY way to audibly SPEAK latin. I asked him how did he know what classical latin sounded like. Did he have a little latin time machine? I then told him the Church stylized Latin for it’s own use.

I was not referring to being able to read latin, but how it sounded when spoken aloud.

 

[JoanREDirector]

It’s about the music, folks. All the great composers of Western music intended that their settings for Church music would be sung using Liturgical Latin. It is much more singable. Unfortunately, in the fifity years since Latin was abandoned the memory of how to do this was forgotten.

I joyfully purchased a CD of Handel’s Te Deum recorded in 1999 only to struck dumb with grief at the incompetent blend of Liturgical and classical pronunciation of the text. The poor secular souls that performed this horror likely didn’t know any better.

I’m a religious education teacher at my parish. You can bet my students know how to sing at least the great Latin hits, Pange Lingua, Salve Regina, Veni Emmanuel and the like and the know how to pronounce the Latin. However, music should arise out of the Liturgy, not the other way around. Latin in a vernacular Mass is just a curiosity. I think we will live to see Latin come back as the standard.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I was told by a Priest of the ICRSS that early church latin was highly stylized and was not the same as spoke latin the street. He said everyone could read the words, but the spoken sound of the words differed based on region, etc.

That does not seem “stylized” to me – That seems style-free?
And as trustworthy as any priest ought to be, I’d still like to see a corroborating source.

In any event I was told that “The Catholic church does not know how to properly pronounce Latin” by a local university professor. He was of the opinion that Classical latin was the ONLY way to audibly SPEAK latin.

“Umph – a lot of nonsence, in my opinion. Making boys say ‘Kickero’ at school when – umph – for the rest of their lives they’ll say ‘Cicero’ – if they ever – umph – say it at all. And instead of ‘vicissim’ – God bless my soul – you’d make them say, 'We kiss ‘im’! Umph – umph!”

Goodbye, Mr. Chips
James Hilton​

tee