Latin returning to Mass

[Lapsed]

ComradeAndrei:

Well, we didn’t have much of a choice when Latin was dumped practically full scale.

And having had that experience yourself, would you really wish the same experience on those who truly love the Mass they have now? It would be a shame not to learn from the mistake that was made with the wholesale dumping of the TLM. This is why I would like to see both offered.

ComradeAndrei:

What would be best would just be to normalize Latin and demand its usage according to the norms, and provide missalettes (and missals) in Latin and English like we have for the 1962 Missal.

That actually seems to me to be the worst of solutions. Making a hybrid like that to me is the worst of both worlds. I would prefer a fully Latin Mass with the exception of the readings and homily, personally. That’s my personal tastes, though. What I would really like is the NO Mass in Latin performed ad orientum. The TLM was before my time.

ComradeAndrei:

Latin isn’t that difficult to get at least a working feel for. English was born out of Latin (and Old English, Germanic languages, French etc.) so it is not like we would foist Chinese on people. It would pay to widen folk’s linguistic horizons a little bit.

The Germanic languages are not derived from Latin but developed simulataneously from their common IndoEuropean roots, along with Greek, the Celtic languages and many others. English is primarily derived from proto-Germanic. Modern English, however, as been strongly affected by its close association with Latin and the fact that French (which is a Romance language) was the language of the British court for a few generations after 1066 when William the Conqueror captured Britain.

ComradeAndrei:

Actually, I’ve found that I pay closer attention to Mass when I have to follow along in the missal. In the Novus Ordo Masses said all in English, I tend to not read along. When you have to read along, you really get a feel for the Mass.

Here I’m the opposite. I get much more out of the Mass by focussing all of my attention on the altar rather thand dividing it between altar and missal. Again, to each their own in such matters.

 

[harinkj]

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

• Kathie

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

The article merely confirms what I’ve been perceiving since I arrived at Assumption Grotto where we do many Latin Masses (Sunday 9:30; 7:30 and 8:30am weekdays and Saturdays).

When Father held a recent “Latin Lite” class, where he focused on pronunciation and other particulars we packed the lounge at around 60-70 people. And, they were asking for more. He hasn’t had time, but if a regular Latin class were started, I know people would engage themselves.

It’s a beautiful language and I, like the seminarians it mentions at the end of the article, feel I’ve been cheated all these years.

 

[Confiteor]

Lapsed:

And having had that experience yourself, would you really wish the same experience on those who truly love the Mass they have now? It would be a shame not to learn from the mistake that was made with the wholesale dumping of the TLM. This is why I would like to see both offered.

That actually seems to me to be the worst of solutions. Making a hybrid like that to me is the worst of both worlds. I would prefer a fully Latin Mass with the exception of the readings and homily, personally. That’s my personal tastes, though. What I would really like is the NO Mass in Latin performed ad orientum. The TLM was before my time.

The Germanic languages are not derived from Latin but developed simulataneously from their common IndoEuropean roots, along with Greek, the Celtic languages and many others. English is primarily derived from proto-Germanic. Modern English, however, as been strongly affected by its close association with Latin and the fact that French (which is a Romance language) was the language of the British court for a few generations after 1066 when William the Conqueror captured Britain.

Here I’m the opposite. I get much more out of the Mass by focussing all of my attention on the altar rather thand dividing it between altar and missal. Again, to each their own in such matters.

This seems like an area where the phrase “pro-choice” comes into play…Let people choose their preferred language/rite…there are enough Mass times/churches to accommodate this in most places.

 

[mary_bobo]

Confiteor:

This seems like an area where the phrase “pro-choice” comes into play…Let people choose their preferred language/rite…there are enough Mass times/churches to accommodate this in most places.

Might be if you live in a big city. I live in a smaller city and this is not the case and though there is a latin Mass twice a month in a church about 60 miles away, I do not think this qualifies as accommodating. Mores the pity.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

I don’t understand why people are so enamored with the Latin language.
Sure, it’s the official language of the Church, but, hey - it’s dead.
It’s a dead language. Before it died, it was the vernacular, and I imagine there were folks like you who complained that the Mass should be said in the original Greek or Aramaic.
If someone doesn’t know what’s going on in Mass in the vernacular, then they’re not going to be transformed into understanding by Latin.
And if they do understand the Mass in the vernacular, what do they need the Latin for?
If Latin makes you feel more ‘Holy’ then God bless you, but it doesn’t do a thing for me.
Sorry -
Joe Gloor

 

[BillyT92679]

I think a retention of it is a good thing simply because of the transcendental nature of it… because we do NOT speak it, it makes worship something unique and different. Some Orthodox use Old Church Slavonic for the same reason… worship of God is something sacred and “removed.”

Still, I believe a mixture of the two (Latin and Vernacular) is necessary… and I believe that the normative Mass we have is perfectly sufficient if celebrated in that fashion (with statuary and inspiring artwork/architecture). I don’t see a need for a holistic return to 1958.

 

[nursejay04]

So the use of Latin is in itself pleasing to God? Where is the tabernacle in these churches? Off to the side or behind the priest who has his back to it. How respectful is that?

 

[Joe_Gloor]

BillyT92679:

…it makes worship something unique and different…

I contend it does make worship different, if not unique…
Boring and incomprehensible.
Just my opinion.

Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
Matt 23:5

 

[Lapsed]

These last few posts are indicative of why I would like to see both made available regularly. If a parish offers two Sunday Masses, make one of them Latin and one vernacular.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

I love the Latin Mass, but I’ve never been to a TLM, only a NO. Last night I went to a NO Latin High Mass (with a Solemn Procession) and it was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen.

I do like the vernacular because it’s easier to understand, of course. But, I think that there are certain parts that should be done in Latin, such as the Consecration. I also would love to see the return of Gregorian chant and other Latin hymns and classical vernacular hymns. And the organ! At my home parish there is a huge beautiful organ in the choir loft but it pretty much only gets used during advent and Holy week.

But all in all, I think that there should be plenty of Latin Masses available (TLM and NO) because it never was supposed to get completely dumped out of the liturgy. The English Mass can be very beautiful if done correctly, like the one I went to at Mount Angel Benedictine Abbey (all the songs were old English hymns and the choir was the monks and seminarians, and the only instrument was the organ).

In Christ,
Rand

 

[anon49823460]

Joe Gloor:

I don’t understand why people are so enamored with the Latin language.
Sure, it’s the official language of the Church, but, hey - it’s dead.
It’s a dead language. Before it died, it was the vernacular, and I imagine there were folks like you who complained that the Mass should be said in the original Greek or Aramaic.
If someone doesn’t know what’s going on in Mass in the vernacular, then they’re not going to be transformed into understanding by Latin.
And if they do understand the Mass in the vernacular, what do they need the Latin for?
If Latin makes you feel more ‘Holy’ then God bless you, but it doesn’t do a thing for me.
Sorry -
Joe Gloor

I’m with Joe. If the Latin Mass make you feel closer to God great! But give me the Mass so that I can understand those beautiful words!

 

[Ace86]

Joe Gloor:

I don’t understand why people are so enamored with the Latin language.
Sure, it’s the official language of the Church, but, hey - it’s dead.
It’s a dead language. Before it died, it was the vernacular, and I imagine there were folks like you who complained that the Mass should be said in the original Greek or Aramaic.
If someone doesn’t know what’s going on in Mass in the vernacular, then they’re not going to be transformed into understanding by Latin.
And if they do understand the Mass in the vernacular, what do they need the Latin for?
If Latin makes you feel more ‘Holy’ then God bless you, but it doesn’t do a thing for me.
Sorry -
Joe Gloor

There are three languages that the Church teaches are Holy: Hebrew, Greek and Latin.

Hebrew for the Old Testament, Greek for the New, and Latin for the Liturgy. You shouldn’t ignore any of them. Everyone knows what V2 did about Latin.

 

[palmas85]

I don’t really understand the objections to the use of Latin in the Mass. It seems fairly apparent to me that most of the people that object, at least on this forum, weren’t even around when the Mass was done in Latin, a few were, but not many. In the Missals you had everything written in both English and Latin. Very easy to follow, and after a few times you knew what was being said and done, if you paid attention that is. The readings were in English and Latin usually and the homily was always in English You did not hear a lot of the Mass anyway, and the responses were very simple. What is so important about hearing every word? They are right there in the Missal, you can easily read them.

The argument about Latin being a dead language is totally without merit as every official document coming out of the Vatican is in Latin.

My own personal opinion for what it’s worth, is that the objectors really don’t have any reason except that they want it that way. Maybe they don’t want to concentrate too hard and instead have everything spoon fed to them. I don’t know. maybe it has something to do with the old school rhyme:

Latin, Latin woe is me
It killed the Romans and now it’s killing me.

 

[arieh0310]

palmas85:

I don’t really understand the objections to the use of Latin in the Mass.

I don’t either. The Maronite rite uses Aramaic and/or Arabic, the Byzantines use Greek, the Latin rite should use Latin. It is a part of our heritage and tradition and has been encouraged by every pope since VII. It is more than asthetically pleasing, it is the language of our rite and should retain “pride of place” within the liturgy.

 

[Ace86]

Lapsed:

And having had that experience yourself, would you really wish the same experience on those who truly love the Mass they have now? It would be a shame not to learn from the mistake that was made with the wholesale dumping of the TLM. This is why I would like to see both offered.

That actually seems to me to be the worst of solutions. Making a hybrid like that to me is the worst of both worlds. I would prefer a fully Latin Mass with the exception of the readings and homily, personally. That’s my personal tastes, though. What I would really like is the NO Mass in Latin performed ad orientum. The TLM was before my time.

But V2 called for a sort of hybrid and that hasn’t been done.

 

[BillyT92679]

Ace86:

But V2 called for a sort of hybrid and that hasn’t been done.

Exactly… Sancrosanctum Concilium called specifically for what is found in the 1965 Roman Missal. If we used that Missal I don’t think we would have many of the issues we have today.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

palmas85:

My own personal opinion for what it’s worth, is that the objectors really don’t have any reason except that they want it that way.

Right back at you for the objection to the vernacular…

 

[Lapsed]

Ace86:

But V2 called for a sort of hybrid and that hasn’t been done.

The reason I think the hybrid would be the worst way to go is that it wouldn’t satisfy those of us who want a real return to the use of Latin, and at this point it would only frustrate those who love the vernacular.

The problem with V2 all along has been that very little of what it actually called for has been done and instead this non-existent liberal spirit has been invoked in its name.

Perhaps if the hybrid Mass envisioned in V2 had been instituted in the first place, the current tensions over Mass language wouldn’t be nearly as prevelant. However, it’s too late to go back and trying to would likely render just about everybody unhappy with the results.

 

[Ace86]

Lapsed:

The reason I think the hybrid would be the worst way to go is that it wouldn’t satisfy those of us who want a real return to the use of Latin, and at this point it would only frustrate those who love the vernacular.

The problem with V2 all along has been that very little of what it actually called for has been done and instead this non-existent liberal spirit has been invoked in its name.

Perhaps if the hybrid Mass envisioned in V2 had been instituted in the first place, the current tensions over Mass language wouldn’t be nearly as prevelant. However, it’s too late to go back and trying to would likely render just about everybody unhappy with the results.

I don’t think it’s too late to go back at all. I mean there’s like 1900 years of tradition that shouldn’t be ignored. I personally would favor what V2 called for - a hybrid. There are rumors that Benedict wants to reconcile the Lefebrevists back to the Church. But I do not like the ‘cafeteria Catholicism’ that seems to prevade those parishes that seem to teach subversive heresy and the like. i believe one usually finds that the more orthodox the parish, the more traditional.