Latin returning to Mass

[Joe_Gloor]

Regarding not understanding objections to Latin in the Mass:

arieh0310:

I don’t either. The Maronite rite uses Aramaic and/or Arabic, the Byzantines use Greek, the Latin rite should use Latin. It is a part of our heritage and tradition and has been encouraged by every pope since VII. It is more than asthetically pleasing, it is the language of our rite and should retain “pride of place” within the liturgy.

The above argument is best interpreted as “we should keep doing it that way because we’ve always done it that way.”

Latin has nothing to do with the Faith or Dogma of Catholicism.
You don’t need to know Latin, but you need to know your Faith.
Why would I want to translate any part of the Mass, either in my head or in the Missal? It is pointless. If you’re thinking in English as I (try to) do and you have to translate Latin in to English anyway, why not just have the preist and congregation speak English in the first place? Just because it’s called the Latin Rite?
I don’t think so.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

Ace86:

I don’t think it’s too late to go back at all. I mean there’s like 1900 years of tradition that shouldn’t be ignored.

This is really the ‘tradition of men’ - not of God.

Ace86:

There are rumors that Benedict wants to reconcile the Lefebrevists back to the Church.

That’s more up to them than him- but I’m all for it.

Ace86:

But I do not like the ‘cafeteria Catholicism’ that seems to prevade those parishes that seem to teach subversive heresy and the like.

Who does?

Ace86:

i believe one usually finds that the more orthodox the parish, the more traditional.

I disagree, I believe one ususally finds that the less orthodox parishes are also less traditional (unless you’re talking about the Lefebrivists who are quite non orthodox), but being less traditional does not make a parish less orthodox.

 

[arieh0310]

Joe Gloor:

Regarding not understanding objections to Latin in the Mass:

The above argument is best interpreted as “we should keep doing it that way because we’ve always done it that way.”

Latin has nothing to do with the Faith or Dogma of Catholicism.
You don’t need to know Latin, but you need to know your Faith.
Why would I want to translate any part of the Mass, either in my head or in the Missal? It is pointless. If you’re thinking in English as I (try to) do and you have to translate Latin in to English anyway, why not just have the preist and congregation speak English in the first place? Just because it’s called the Latin Rite?
I don’t think so.

The sign of the cross isn’t dogma, nor is genuflecting, nor vestments, nor a thousand other things that are distinctly Catholic. If we toss everything that has 1900 years of tradition simply because it isn’t dogma then Catholicism becomes as sterile as protestantism. Your arguments are exactly the arguments I heard by my anti-Catholic pastors who despised anything liturgical or traditional simply because it wasn’t found in the Bible (their sole source of dogma).

Latin is more that just asthetically pleasing, it is transcendant and avoids the quaint colloquialisms of pop culture.

 

[Ace86]

Joe Gloor:

Regarding not understanding objections to Latin in the Mass:

The above argument is best interpreted as “we should keep doing it that way because we’ve always done it that way.”

Latin has nothing to do with the Faith or Dogma of Catholicism.
You don’t need to know Latin, but you need to know your Faith.
Why would I want to translate any part of the Mass, either in my head or in the Missal? It is pointless. If you’re thinking in English as I (try to) do and you have to translate Latin in to English anyway, why not just have the preist and congregation speak English in the first place? Just because it’s called the Latin Rite?
I don’t think so.

Have you read the documents of V2 that pertain to worship in the Latin Rite? You should have some humility in regards to what the Church teaches. Look I would rejoice if my priest at the beginning and at the end of Mass turned toward the Crucifix and said," In Nomine Pater, et Filius, et Sanctus Spiritus’. Shame if you don’t know what that means.

 

[Ace86]

Some other points:

1. In Africa, American missionaries convert Africans to Catholicism. Of course since they can’t speak Latin, many African liturgies are in English. Doesn’t anyone find that odd?
2. In China where the Catholic Church and Christians are persecuted by the communist government, Catholics send letters, messages, and correspondence to the Vatican. You know what language? That’s right - Latin. Totally fools the government agents.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Joe Gloor:

Regarding not understanding objections to Latin in the Mass:

The above argument is best interpreted as “we should keep doing it that way because we’ve always done it that way.”

** Latin has nothing to do with the Faith or Dogma of Catholicism.**
You don’t need to know Latin, but you need to know your Faith.
Why would I want to translate any part of the Mass, either in my head or in the Missal? It is pointless. If you’re thinking in English as I (try to) do and you have to translate Latin in to English anyway, why not just have the preist and congregation speak English in the first place? Just because it’s called the Latin Rite?
I don’t think so.

Peace be with you!

That’s not true in the least. Since Latin is a dead language, the words and their meanings cannot change. All of the Vatican’s official documents (yes, that includes the DOGMAS) are written IN LATIN. The official rite of the Mass (yes, even the Novus Ordo) was first written IN LATIN. We keep hearing stories on here about priests changing words of the Mass or even the consecration to suit their own theology (if the words are doctored with it could even effect the validity of the consecration). That can’t be done if certain parts of the Mass are in Latin. Plus, if some or all of the Mass were in Latin, then anywhere you go in the world you would hear the EXACT same words, not just the same words in different langauges, but the same words.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Ace86]

Sorry here’s a correction.

'In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti"

Thankyou tee_em_off.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Lapsed, I think you totally misinterpreted my post.

And having had that experience yourself, would you really wish the same experience on those who truly love the Mass they have now? It would be a shame not to learn from the mistake that was made with the wholesale dumping of the TLM. This is why I would like to see both offered.

I said nothing about just yanking the rug out from anyone and forcing things down their throat. I merely pointed out that when Latin was unofficially purged from the American Church, no one really had much of a choice. Just pointed it out, nothing more.

Also, I wasn’t even born when the Tridentine Mass was standard. I merely broadened my horizons and got to thinking, “Why did we insist on committing cultural suicide?” I would also like to see both offered, the Tridentine Mass and the Pauline Mass with an emphasis on the Pauline Mass in a more reverent form (ad orientem, Latin, etc.).

That actually seems to me to be the worst of solutions. Making a hybrid like that to me is the worst of both worlds. I would prefer a fully Latin Mass with the exception of the readings and homily, personally. That’s my personal tastes, though. What I would really like is the NO Mass in Latin performed ad orientum. The TLM was before my time.

I didn’t say I want a hybrid Tridentine and Pauline Mass, but I would entertain the possibility of a hybrid Latin/English NO Mass. I too would like to see ad orientem.

The Germanic languages are not derived from Latin but developed simulataneously from their common IndoEuropean roots, along with Greek, the Celtic languages and many others.

Yeah, I know.

English is primarily derived from proto-Germanic. Modern English, however, as been strongly affected by its close association with Latin and the fact that French (which is a Romance language) was the language of the British court for a few generations after 1066 when William the Conqueror captured Britain.

I also know this, maybe I was unclear in my original statement. What I’m saying is that Latin is not as alien to us westerners as Chinese of Japanese would be. Our English language does have a strong influence from Latin and French and uses the same alphabet. So, it is certainly not beyond the grasp of the average man to pick up on Latin in the Mass.

Here I’m the opposite. I get much more out of the Mass by focussing all of my attention on the altar rather thand dividing it between altar and missal. Again, to each their own in such matters.

I haven’t grown up with the Tridentine Mass, so I really find myself reading it to familiarize myself with it. Once I do so, I can watch the altar with more than occaisional glances. That is one thing that is really good about the Tridentine Mass, the goings on up at the altar teach Salvation history and the Gospel just in their actions. That is what is so wonderful about the old way. I wish the NO would have kept some of these actions and that priests and catechists would teach them.

 

[palmas85]

Joe Gloor:

Right back at you for the objection to the vernacular…

I have no objection to the use of the vernacular at all. I merely pointed out that no one on this forum has ever come up with a reason more compelling than I want it that way. I have yet to see anyone give a good reason for it thats all.

 

[Lapsed]

ComradeAndrei:

Lapsed, I think you totally misinterpreted my post.

I think you’re right.

 

[Walking_Home]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

That’s not true in the least. Since Latin is a dead language, the words and their meanings cannot change. All of the Vatican’s official documents (yes, that includes the DOGMAS) are written IN LATIN. The official rite of the Mass (yes, even the Novus Ordo) was first written IN LATIN. We keep hearing stories on here about priests changing words of the Mass or even the consecration to suit their own theology (if the words are doctored with it could even effect the validity of the consecration). That can’t be done if certain parts of the Mass are in Latin. Plus, if some or all of the Mass were in Latin, then anywhere you go in the world you would hear the EXACT same words, not just the same words in different langauges, but the same words.

In Christ,
Rand

---

Let us pray for the day, when we can go across town to Mass and hear the same words, across the state, to what ever state, what ever country, and hear the same words, without inovations or misinterpretations.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

palmas85:

I have no objection to the use of the vernacular at all. I merely pointed out that no one on this forum has ever come up with a reason more compelling than I want it that way. I have yet to see anyone give a good reason for it thats all.

So the congregation can understand it? So that it resonates in their minds and in their hearts, sinks in and bears fruit?

I’m all for the Latin Mass for those who want it, but I know that the words of the Mass in English (my vernacular) resonate with me the rest of the day after I’ve assisted at the Mass.

 

[Ace86]

JKirkLVNV:

So the congregation can understand it? So that it resonates in their minds and in their hearts, sinks in and bears fruit?

I’m all for the Latin Mass for those who want it, but I know that the words of the Mass in English (my vernacular) resonate with me the rest of the day after I’ve assisted at the Mass.

Why not partly in Latin and partly in English? It seems that’s what V2 called for.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Ace86:

Why not partly in Latin and partly in English? It seems that’s what V2 called for.

That’s what we do in my parish. The Kyrie is in Greek, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Mysterium Fidei, the Amen (obviously the same in both languages), and the Agnus Dei are in Latin. It’s beautiful, but I hope it doesn’t go any further than that. I hope those who want the TLM get it, I suppose the Pauline Mass could be offered in Latin as well, but given the choice, I would always go to an English Mass. And further, I think Latin should be continue to be the official language of the Church, but that it’s use in Mass should be reserved generally for large, international mega-masses, like papal masses, gatherings at the Holy See by bishops all over the world, etc., and that the Mass in the vernacular continue to be the normative Mass. If the first TLM I attended had been the first Mass I attended, I wouldn’t be a Catholic today. So I’m grateful for the Mass in my language.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

So the congregation can understand it? So that it resonates in their minds and in their hearts, sinks in and bears fruit?

I’m all for the Latin Mass for those who want it, but I know that the words of the Mass in English (my vernacular) resonate with me the rest of the day after I’ve assisted at the Mass.

It is indeed strange then that the Mass survived all those years when I guess by your definition, no one could understand it.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

That’s what we do in my parish. The Kyrie is in Greek, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Mysterium Fidei, the Amen (obviously the same in both languages), and the Agnus Dei are in Latin. It’s beautiful, but I hope it doesn’t go any further than that. I hope those who want the TLM get it, I suppose the Pauline Mass could be offered in Latin as well, but given the choice, I would always go to an English Mass. And further, I think Latin should be continue to be the official language of the Church, but that it’s use in Mass should be reserved generally for large, international mega-masses, like papal masses, gatherings at the Holy See by bishops all over the world, etc., and that the Mass in the vernacular continue to be the normative Mass. If the first TLM I attended had been the first Mass I attended, I wouldn’t be a Catholic today. So I’m grateful for the Mass in my language.

I think that your response speaks volumes and actually prooves my contention about most who want the mass in the vernacular… So you would not be Catholic if the first Mass you attended was a Traditional Mass? Even though the faith is the same, the beliefs the same and everything else, you would not choose Catholicism if the Mass was in Latin rather than English? Does the fact that the Mass is in the vernacular change what the beliefs are and what the religion really is??

 

[JKirkLVNV]

palmas85:

I think that your response speaks volumes and actually prooves my contention about most who want the mass in the vernacular… So you would not be Catholic if the first Mass you attended was a Traditional Mass? Even though the faith is the same, the beliefs the same and everything else, you would not choose Catholicism if the Mass was in Latin rather than English? Does the fact that the Mass is in the vernacular change what the beliefs are and what the religion really is??

What I meant to say is that if that was the first Mass I attended, I probably wouldn’t have gone back to learn more. So it doesn’t prove anything, other than it is fortunate for me that I did attend a Mass I could understand and that bore fruit in me. I was talking about the ONLY TLM I had attended.

Look, you attend a Latin Mass, right? What skin is it off your nose if I want to attend the vernacular? I’m not saying I’d leave if we went back to Latin (thank God we don’t have to worry about it).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

palmas85:

It is indeed strange then that the Mass survived all those years when I guess by your definition, no one could understand it.

There was a time when people COULD understand Latin. You asked for a possible reason for the vernacular Mass. I provided you with one from my perspective.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

What I meant to say is that if that was the first Mass I attended, I probably wouldn’t have gone back to learn more. So it doesn’t prove anything, other than it is fortunate for me that I did attend a Mass I could understand and that bore fruit in me. I was talking about the ONLY TLM I had attended.

Look, you attend a Latin Mass, right? What skin is it off your nose if I want to attend the vernacular? I’m not saying I’d leave if we went back to Latin (thank God we don’t have to worry about it).

No skin off my nose at all, and for that matter Kirk, I attend both types of masses. Regularly. I just found it somewhat disconcerting that you would not be a Catholic if your first Mass had been a Traditional Mass. My first mass was a Traditional Mass and I stuck around. Maybe there is somthing wrong with me, but I don’t have to understand everything completely in order to accept it as the word of God. While the sacrifice of the Mass is the center it is not by any means the entire faith or even close to it… To break it down to the apparent proposition of my favorite Mass or nothing is pretty bad. And yes, that goes both ways.

One question though. Why wouldn’t you have gone back to learn more?

 

[tee_eff_em]

JKirkLVNV:

And further, I think Latin should be continue to be the official language of the Church, but that it’s use in Mass should be reserved generally for large, international mega-masses, like papal masses, gatherings at the Holy See by bishops all over the world, etc., and that the Mass in the vernacular continue to be the normative Mass.

But how will the congregations at those Masses have become familiar with the Normative Latin Mass, if its use will have been reserved to those occassions?

tee