Lawmakers urge S.F. archbishop to withdraw teacher morality clauses

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

That’s a huge cop-out answer. “Oh well, God made everthing, so everything is theology…”

It doesn’t change the fact that a Math teacher is teaching math, not theology.

It doesn’t change the fact that there is no theology to algebra, geometry, pre-calc, calc.

What theology would you teach in a class regarding any of the above? Or chemistry, physics, etc…

It really goes a lot deeper than what is being taught.

Teachers (whatever subject) are EXAMPLES for all young-skulls-full-of-mush.

A math Teacher at a Catholic High School could possibly be the best math teacher in the U.S. But if that teacher is not setting a “Catholic” example he has no place in a Catholic Faculty.

 

[unstoppable_II]

Computer Engineering, though I moved to Management Information Systems because I disliked the programming emphasis.

So yes, I was a STEM major. And no I didn’t experience any of the rarities that you listed off.

The point is that you are unlikely to encounter them in STEM majors. It’s the liberal arts.

 

[unstoppable_II]

That’s a huge cop-out answer. “Oh well, God made everthing, so everything is theology…”

It doesn’t change the fact that a Math teacher is teaching math, not theology.

It doesn’t change the fact that there is no theology to algebra, geometry, pre-calc, calc.

What theology would you teach in a class regarding any of the above? Or chemistry, physics, etc…

Don’t you think that theology and mathematics meet somewhere under philosophy?

 

[jtauke]

The point is that you are unlikely to encounter them in STEM majors. It’s the liberal arts.

I also have a minor in political science, took a required philosophy course, and took as much history as I could get my hands on.

So I do have experience with liberal arts…

 

[jtauke]

Don’t you think that theology and mathematics meet somewhere under philosophy?

Mathematics is not philosophy. It’s objective fact that can be proven.

There is no philosophy behind the formula for the area of a circle. It just ‘is’ and it can be proven through the use of a mathematical proof.

So no, I don’t think that at all.

 

[JimG]

As has been said, every teacher is an example to the students. In a Catholic school, teachers are not to teach against Catholic teaching, either by word or example. A man might be the best math teacher in the country, but if he is openly shacking up with his girlfriend–or his boyfriend–he would be an inappropriate teacher for the school. If he was publicly participating in pro-abortion rallies, gay marriage rallies, and acting publicly against Catholic teaching, he should not be teaching in a Catholic school, no matter the subject.

 

[jtauke]

As has been said, every teacher is an example to the students. In a Catholic school, teachers are not to teach against Catholic teaching, either by word or example. A man might be the best math teacher in the country, but if he is openly shacking up with his girlfriend–or his boyfriend–he would be an inappropriate teacher for the school. If he was publicly participating in pro-abortion rallies, gay marriage rallies, and acting publicly against Catholic teaching, he should not be teaching in a Catholic school, no matter the subject.

Then the administration of the schools should be aware of who they’re hiring? It’s the least they can do to spend the exorbitant amount of tuition money they bring in to do a proper background check on potential faculty.

 

[JimG]

Then the administration of the schools should be aware of who they’re hiring? It’s the least they can do to spend the exorbitant amount of tuition money they bring in to do a proper background check on potential faculty.

Yes, of course. But they should also make the standards clear to all potential employees.

 

[Brendan]

That’s a huge cop-out answer. “Oh well, God made everthing, so everything is theology…”

It doesn’t change the fact that a Math teacher is teaching math, not theology.

It doesn’t change the fact that there is no theology to algebra, geometry, pre-calc, calc.

What theology would you teach in a class regarding any of the above? Or chemistry, physics, etc…

It comes directly to use from Aquinas.

The effect informs us of the Cause.

Theology is the study of what we know, or can learn, about God.

The physical world, as a work (effect) of God, tells us about Him (the Cause) . Why He did what He did, the rules of the natural universe that He created.

You might not agree with that assessment, but, as noted, these are Catholic schools under a Catholic Bishop. +Cordileone is well within his rights to insist that natural philosophies taught in Catholic schools are taught in a way that corresponds to the Catholic understanding of the role of philosophical studies.

 

[jtauke]

It comes directly to use from Aquinas.

The effect informs us of the Cause.

Theology is the study of what we know, or can learn, about God.

The physical world, as a work (effect) of God, tells us about Him (the Cause) . Why He did what He did, the rules of the natural universe that He created.

You might not agree with that assessment, but, as noted, these are Catholic schools under a Catholic Bishop. +Cordileone is well within his rights to insist that natural philosophies taught in Catholic schools are taught in a way that corresponds to the Catholic understanding of the role of philosophical studies.

Please explain how exactly one teaches geometry with a catholic understanding, and how it differs at all from what is taught in a public school.

 

[Brendan]

Mathematics is not philosophy. It’s objective fact that can be proven. .

Of course it is a philosophy. It one of the branches of Natural Philosophy.

That is why Mathematicians ( and Phycistis, Chemists, Biologists) receive Ph.D ( Doctor of Philosophy) degrees.

Engineers receive D.Eng, engineering is not a branch of philosophy. Computer scientists get Dsc.Comp degrees ( Doctor of Computer Science)

Likewise with medical professionals, who receive M.Ds, D.Os, D.Ds, O.D.s, O.D.M’s ect…)

None of those are branches of philosophy either.

But Mathematics, Biology, Physics, Chemistry ALL are branches of philosophies. They get the same degree ( Ph.D) that any other philosopher will receive after advanced study.

From Websters

natural philosophy

noun

Definition of NATURAL PHILOSOPHY
: natural science; especially : physical science
— natural philosopher noun

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural%20philosophy

 

[Brendan]

Please explain how exactly one teaches geometry with a catholic understanding, and how it differs at all from what is taught in a public school.

By ensuring that the students understand the role of geometry. That the elements of beauty found in the geometric symmetries point towards a God who values beauty, and that our recognition of that beauty points towards our being made in His image and likeness

FYI, why do you think that the Vatican has maintained an astronomical observatory, staffed by clergy

 

[jtauke]

By ensuring that the students understand the role of geometry. That the elements of beauty found in the geometric symmetries point towards a God who values beauty, and that our recognition of that beauty points towards our being made in His image and likeness

FYI, why do you think that the Vatican has maintained an astronomical observatory, staffed by clergy

So they should be taught that the role of Geometry is to prove the existence of God?

I hardly think that was the point Euclid was trying to make when he wrote The Elements, 300 years before the birth of Christ.

 

[Brendan]

So they should be taught that the role of Geometry is to prove the existence of God?

I hardly think that was the point Euclid was trying to make when he wrote The Elements, 300 years before the birth of Christ.

You need to read more Aquinas. Geometery is the effect, one by which we can know MORE about God (the effect) but it is not the Proof of God’s existence, though Aquinas does offer several good ones on that front as well.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Then the administration of the schools should be aware of who they’re hiring? It’s the least they can do to spend the exorbitant amount of tuition money they bring in to do a proper background check on potential faculty.

This is very true and the crux of the problem.

When I attended Archbishop Riordan High School in San Francisco (One of the subject schools) it was administered and staffed by Marinist Brothers and Priests. Catholic laymen made up about one third of the faculty. Later, as a lay teacher at Sacred Heart High School (another subject school) I was part of the 50% laymen, 50% Christian Brothers faculty. Today both schools are 100% administered and staffed by lay people. There are no religious orders present. Both schools only have a part-time diocesan Priest as Chaplin.

Although both schools maintain the philosophy and traditions of their founding religious orders, the administration/archdiocese is responsible for hiring teachers.

San Francisco has, for many years, been a hub of progressive and liberal thought both culturally and education wise. It was the Catholic school system that provided traditional educational values. Soon that became “watered-down” due to creeping secularism and lack of dedicated teachers from Religious Orders.

It is not surprising today, to find a principle hiring a teacher without even asking it they go to church. Consequently, we have our present situation. This will be a hard road to go down, but it is about time the archbishop began straightening things out.

 

[Thorolfr]

By ensuring that the students understand the role of geometry. That the elements of beauty found in the geometric symmetries point towards a God who values beauty, and that our recognition of that beauty points towards our being made in His image and likeness

FYI, why do you think that the Vatican has maintained an astronomical observatory, staffed by clergy

According to news articles, 18% of the 1217 teachers in the Bay Area’s Catholic schools are not Catholic. That’s about 219 teachers. So if the geometry teacher is one of these non-Catholic teachers, should he/she be required to teach the students that “geometric symmetries point towards God”? What if this teacher is an atheist?

If the diocese wants all of its teachers to be “ministers” who teach everything from a Catholic perspective, shouldn’t they only hire teachers who are practicing Catholics?

 

[Brendan]

According to news articles, 18% of the 1217 teachers in the Bay Area’s Catholic schools are not Catholic. That’s about 219 teachers. So if the geometry teacher is one of these non-Catholic teachers, should he/she be required to teach the students that “geometric symmetries point towards God”? What if this teacher is an atheist?

yes they should. That is part of the contract ( hence the whole thread)

Much like if PETA hired someone to teach classes, the content of the class and the understanding of the role of animals from the PETA viewpoint would be taught. And if not PETA would be well justified to fire them.

And if the contract stated that the person would not publically engage in the consumption of foie gras, and the person was seen doing so, it would be a violation of contract and subject to termination.

If the diocese wants all of its teachers to be “ministers” who teach everything from a Catholic perspective, shouldn’t they only hire teachers who are practicing Catholics?

The Church only requires that for sacerdotal roles. It is not uncommon, for example, for a parishes music ministry be run by a non-Catholic. But the CONTENT of that ministry must conform to the Catholic understanding of the role of music in the Liturgy

Or even in the classes I took at the seminary, I had my class in Kione Greek from an Orthodox But nothing was taught that did not correspond to Catholic theology

Likewise with geometry teachers, the Church does not have a requirement that the natural philosophies be taught by Catholics, but that what is taught correspond to Catholic though.

 

[Thorolfr]

yes they should. That is part of the contract ( hence the whole thread)

Much like if PETA hired someone to teach classes, the content of the class and the understanding of the role of animals from the PETA viewpoint would be taught. And if not PETA would be well justified to fire them.

The Church only requires that for sacerdotal roles. It is not uncommon, for example, for a parishes music ministry be run by a non-Catholic. But the CONTENT of that ministry must conform to the Catholic understanding of the role of music in the Liturgy

Or even in the classes I took at the seminary, I had my class in Kione Greek from an Orthodox But nothing was taught that did not correspond to Catholic theology

Likewise with geometry teachers, the Church does not have a requirement that the natural philosophies be taught by Catholics, but that what is taught correspond to Catholic though.

I thought that the thread was a about morals clause and an attempt to classify all teachers as ministers, not about what teachers must teach in their classes. I also don’t know how a class in Koine Greek could have been taught from a non-Catholic or a Catholic perspective. Do Catholics understand Greek grammar differently from others?

 

[JimG]

I sort of wonder why public schools do not have similar morals clauses for their teachers. If a high school English teacher is publicly living with three concubines and never fails to mention the fact to his students, should he be retained by the school?

 

[Thorolfr]

If a high school English teacher is publicly living with three concubines and never fails to mention the fact to his students, should he be retained by the school?

What’s wrong with having concubines? Solomon had 300 of them, so three is pretty moderate in comparison