Lazarus and the Rich Man

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rinnie said:
Again I disagree. Because in the bible it tells us we must all be purified before we get to heaven,
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This is after Jesus had risen from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to the human race.
The way I see it Abraham got through, Lazarus did, and the rich man is still being purified.
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That may be “the way you see it” but it is not the teaching of the Church.
This makes much sense. Other wise why does the bible say we all must be cleansed before we go to heaven.
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Not until AFTER the Resurrection. This incident in the parable is taking place before the Resurrection. Therefore, neither of the places mentioned in the parable can be Heaven or Purgatory, since Heaven was not yet opened to the human race, and Purgatory did not yet exist.

Therefore, Lazarus could not have been in either Heaven, or in Purgatory.

Heaven was opened to the human race, and Purgatory was created, when Jesus rose from the dead on Easter morning.

Therefore, Lazarus was in a “third state” - called “Paradise” or “the bosom of Abraham.”

The reason this parable is mentioned by Catholic apologists is not to “prove the existence” of Purgatory, but rather, as a first step to show that there are, in fact, temporary third states in the afterlife. They then follow this argument up with their main arguments for Purgatory, which come from elsewhere in the Scriptures. They just use this parable to lay the groundwork for the concept of third states.
 
jmcrae said:
This is after Jesus had risen from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to the human race.

That may be “the way you see it” but it is not the teaching of the Church.

Not until AFTER the Resurrection. This incident in the parable is taking place before the Resurrection. Therefore, neither of the places mentioned in the parable can be Heaven or Purgatory, since Heaven was not yet opened to the human race, and Purgatory did not yet exist.

Therefore, Lazarus could not have been in either Heaven, or in Purgatory.

Heaven was opened to the human race, and Purgatory was created, when Jesus rose from the dead on Easter morning.

Therefore, Lazarus was in a “third state” - called “Paradise” or “the bosom of Abraham.”

The reason this parable is mentioned by Catholic apologists is not to “prove the existence” of Purgatory, but rather, as a first step to show that there are, in fact, temporary third states in the afterlife. They then follow this argument up with their main arguments for Purgatory, which come from elsewhere in the Scriptures. They just use this parable to lay the groundwork for the concept of third states.
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ok now where does it say that purgatory was created after Jesus rose from the dead on Easter? What I mean where is the scripture for that?
 
rinnie said:
ok now where does it say that purgatory was created after Jesus rose from the dead on Easter? What I mean where is the scripture for that?
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not by scripture alone my friend. Its logic, purgatory is a place for those who are granted heaven to be cleansed so if heaven was closed…
 
jmcrae said:
This is after Jesus had risen from the dead, and opened the gates of Heaven to the human race.

That may be “the way you see it” but it is not the teaching of the Church.

Not until AFTER the Resurrection. This incident in the parable is taking place before the Resurrection. Therefore, neither of the places mentioned in the parable can be Heaven or Purgatory, since Heaven was not yet opened to the human race, and Purgatory did not yet exist.

Therefore, Lazarus could not have been in either Heaven, or in Purgatory.

Heaven was opened to the human race, and Purgatory was created, when Jesus rose from the dead on Easter morning.

Therefore, Lazarus was in a “third state” - called “Paradise” or “the bosom of Abraham.”

The reason this parable is mentioned by Catholic apologists is not to “prove the existence” of Purgatory, but rather, as a first step to show that there are, in fact, temporary third states in the afterlife. They then follow this argument up with their main arguments for Purgatory, which come from elsewhere in the Scriptures. They just use this parable to lay the groundwork for the concept of third states.
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Okay now you said Lazarus could not have been in heaven or purgatory. Then where were they? Now if you are going to say paradise, which I do not disagree with, but how indeed did they see the rich man then, and how did he see them if he indeed was in hell. Because the un-righteous can not see paradise. You do agree with that. And if the rich man indeed was un-righteous this indeed did happen, How can that be?
 
rinnie said:
Then Paradise could possibly be another name for purgatory!
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No. Paradise ceased to exist at the Resurrection. It was the abode of the Old Testament Saints. They went to Heaven at the time of the Resurrection. We read about this in the third chapter of I Peter.

It was replaced with Purgatory, but Paradise and Purgatory are not the same thing - the OT Saints were not being “purified” - they were just waiting for Jesus to open the gates of Heaven for them.
 
Now do not get me wrong. I agree with you totally that there are different stages or whatever word anyone wants to use for purgatory. Some are more severe then others. I agree with that. But some can be in purgatory for a very very long time. Some very short. I agree with the stages of purgatory. And I do agree that all souls must be purified.
 
jmcrae said:
No. Paradise ceased to exist at the Resurrection. It was the abode of the Old Testament Saints. They went to Heaven at the time of the Resurrection. We read about this in the third chapter of I Peter.

It was replaced with Purgatory, but Paradise and Purgatory are not the same thing - the OT Saints were not being “purified” - they were just waiting for Jesus to open the gates of Heaven for them.
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But I thought everyone had to still be purified before entering heaven. Everyone? I never read that the OT Saints did not have to also be purified?
 
rinnie said:
But I thought everyone had to still be purified before entering heaven. Everyone? I never read that the OT Saints did not have to also be purified?
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They were under the Law of the Old Covenant. They were purified by means of their animal sacrifices, and by the keeping of the Law of Moses.
 
jmcrae said:
They were under the Law of the Old Covenant. They were purified by means of their animal sacrifices, and by the keeping of the Law of Moses.
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I am sure they still needed to go through purgatory after the gates of heaven were opened.
 
jmcrae said:
They were under the Law of the Old Covenant. They were purified by means of their animal sacrifices, and by the keeping of the Law of Moses.
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Here is why I don’t agree with that. Because the reason Jesus died was to take away death right. What was the punishment for sins, death. Now think about that. Why was heaven not open, because it took Jesus someone who had no sins to die for us to take away those sins.
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church **1031 **The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

The elect are either people in the Old Covenant or the New Coveannt so everyone goes through Purgatory if neccessary.
 
jmcrae said:
Okay - that makes sense. After, makes sense. 🙂

But not before. Before, they were just waiting.
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I just kinda just caught this. But remember Jesus went to release many of the souls held in the Bosom of Abraham. since the creation of the the world this PLACE of purgation was a place of waiting and cleansing. Now think waiting AND cleansing. Not just waiting. Now that is the teaching. So again this is why I fill that the rich man was indeed in purgatory.😃 He was getting cleansed of his sins.
 
Chaldean_Rite said:
yeah, I just read St. Ambrose say “his name was blotted from the book of life”

If this is the same Jesus uses the “rich man” to indicated that

Luke 12.19-20
“And I will say to my soul.the rich man said, Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years; take thy ease, eat, drink, be merry. But God said to him, Thou fool, this night do they demand thy soul of thee.”[24]

Matthew 19:24
24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

James 1:11
For the sun rose with a burning heat, and parched the grass, and the flower thereof fell off, and the beauty of the shape thereof perished: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

I know in other places it described men as rich but later they gave up their money or did other great feats and the Sacred Author is doing that to basically show conversion.
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Personally, I think the warning is against being rich in general. It can bring many who are rich TOO much comfort. And TOO much temptation to sin in agregious ways to the gospel message.

Remember Jesus saying, “woe to you rich”. He didn’t name anyone in particular who was/is rich. He was making a broad general statement…for the rich to be on guard

Jesus isn’t against being rich, it’s just that being rich brings tremendous tests and temptations for the rich to be charitable and merciful with the wealth they’ve been given.
 
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Originally Posted by rinnie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
ok now where does it say that purgatory was created after Jesus rose from the dead on Easter? What I mean where is the scripture for that?
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Chaldean_Rite said:
not by scripture alone my friend. Its logic, purgatory is a place for those who are granted heaven to be cleansed so if heaven was closed…
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Chaldean,

are you familiar with the following site and explanations?
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Even in the OT the Jews knew of purification after death.

Mal 3:

behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.

2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.
3"He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. 4"Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years.
 
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