Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

Catechism of the Catholic Church **1031 **The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

The elect are either people in the Old Covenant or the New Coveannt so everyone goes through Purgatory if neccessary.

Which is what I believe to be venial sin. I was told that you can be forgiven venial sin but not Mortal Sin.

 

[Mickey]

Personally, I think the warning is against being rich in general.

A rich man is anyone so attached to material posessions, that they are unable to follow Christ’s teachings. We see much of this in our secular world today. And as the parable tells us, if our hearts are hardened in materialism during this life, and we are bereft of love, mercy and compassion, there will be unquenchable thirst and torments in the next.

We cannot repent after we die.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Which is what I believe to be venial sin. I was told that you can be forgiven venial sin but not Mortal Sin.

which sin do you think the rich man has committed could possibly be deemed as venial?

 

[rinnie]

which sin do you think the rich man has committed could possibly be deemed as venial?

The only sin that I know of that you cannot be forgiven for is to sin against the Holy Spirit. That said the rich man did not mean to personally sin against God. He just did not share and give to the poor and the needy. He was not AWARE of the great sin he did. Now I was told to be in Mortal sin it must be intentional, not to be forgiven. Now the proof he did not understand is because he also knew his brothers were not aware of it either. His venial sin was greed.

Now lets take that into today. Just a little off the subject but not really. How many people do you know that have so much, and are so greedy that they would not help anyone. Now that said, Do you think they are doomed for hell, and God will not forgive them for helping others.

I am not talking about People who steal or cheat, But the rich man was not accused of this. Only greed.

 

[jmcrae]

The only sin that I know of that you cannot be forgiven for is to sin against the Holy Spirit. That said the rich man did not mean to personally sin against God. He just did not share and give to the poor and the needy. He was not AWARE of the great sin he did.

How could he not be aware? He had the teachings of Moses, and the Law, which show God’s preferential option for the poor.

Now I was told to be in Mortal sin it must be intentional, not to be forgiven. Now the proof he did not understand is because he also knew his brothers were not aware of it either. His venial sin was greed.

Greed is listed as one of the seven deadly sins. It is hardly venial.

 

[Mickey]

Greed is listed as one of the seven deadly sins. It is hardly venial.

:sad_yes:

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

what of his apparent gluttony?

 

[jmcrae]

what of his apparent gluttony?

Another excellent point. It seems that he preferred to throw his food away, rather than give it to Lazarus.

 

[rinnie]

Another excellent point. It seems that he preferred to throw his food away, rather than give it to Lazarus.

Okay but was he sorry for what he had done. How many people again do you know today that can fall into greed.

Have any of you ever walked past a homeless person. Have any of you ever walked past a person on the street with a cup asking for money.

Have any of you ever had someone in need ask for money, when you knew you were never going to get it back, and said no?

 

[rinnie]

Also how many of you can say that this year alone over the Holidays you did not make a glutton out of yourself at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

How many of you gave to someone really poor this year, and did without. I don’t mean give and share I mean give and not give to yourself or family that did not really need anything.

How many gave food to the poor for Christmas, instead of giving a gift to someone that really did not truely NEED it?

 

[jmcrae]

Okay but was he sorry for what he had done.

Actually, he was sorry that he ended up in Hell. If he had been sorry during his lifetime about how he had treated Lazarus, he would have remedied the situation at that time, instead of dying in his sins.

The fact that a sin is common does not mean that people aren’t going to Hell for it. God does not grade “on the curve”.

It is quite possible that every person who denies to help the poor, or who takes more than he or she needs, is going to go to Hell, unless they change their ways in this lifetime. There is nothing in the Bible or anywhere else that says, “Oh, everyone is doing it. So, I will be lenient and let you get away with it.”

 

[rinnie]

Maybe we need to go over the 7 deadly sins. Wonder how many we did?

Well lets see, greed was one of them. But I guess none of you guys were ever greedy in your life, so you can make that off your list.

Me myself, I see alot of myself in the Rich man, and I am not real rich. How can that be.

I can see where I wanted too much, How many tv’s do I have let me count. 5 but that is not greed like the rich man right. How many pair of shoes do I have. Too many to count but thats not greed either. How many shirts. oh my 3 closet full. Coats could probally go a different one for quite a few weeks.

But see no thats not greed. I only know one person in my life who I can say never turned anyone away ever. Only one. And that was my Dad. And he taught me well. What happend to me?

I love to gamble sometimes. Casino’s im in. If I have extra I love to go. Food cant wait for Sunday another big steeler game. food, drinks but we are not gluttons, No just the rich man.

Then if the steelers make it to the Super Bowl. Look out. Another big party. But no that does not count does it. My sins are fine. Just the rich mans getting it.

Whats our problem guys. Can any of you say you have never showed greed, or God forbid even be a glutton in your life.

They had Holy Men.

For Goodness sake we had the Real deal, we had God and look at us?

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe we need to go over the 7 deadly sins. Wonder how many we did?

Well lets see, greed was one of them. But I guess none of you guys were ever greedy in your life, so you can make that off your list.

You don’t have to be a perfect Saint, to point out the fact that people go to Hell for commiting sins and then not repenting of them.

In fact, it serves as a good reminder to ourselves, too, especially if we need to go to Confession, or if we need to do something about an over-consuming lifestyle. Better to be reminded of it now, than wait until it’s too late, like the rich man did.

But an alcoholic can point to another alcoholic, and say, “You drink too much.” It is not “hypocrisy” for him to do this. Indeed, he knows whereof he speaks, and has a perfect right to say something when he sees a problem developing, whose outcome he has already experienced.

 

[Mickey]

Actually, he was sorry that he ended up in Hell. If he had been sorry during his lifetime about how he had treated Lazarus, he would have remedied the situation at that time, instead of dying in his sins.

The fact that a sin is common does not mean that people aren’t going to Hell for it. God does not grade “on the curve”.

It is quite possible that every person who denies to help the poor, or who takes more than he or she needs, is going to go to Hell, unless they change their ways in this lifetime. There is nothing in the Bible or anywhere else that says, “Oh, everyone is doing it. So, I will be lenient and let you get away with it.”

Amen! Excellent post. (Bold emphasis is mine)

 

[rinnie]

You don’t have to be a perfect Saint, to point out the fact that people go to Hell for commiting sins and then not repenting of them.

In fact, it serves as a good reminder to ourselves, too, especially if we need to go to Confession, or if we need to do something about an over-consuming lifestyle. Better to be reminded of it now, than wait until it’s too late, like the rich man did.

But an alcoholic can point to another alcoholic, and say, “You drink too much.” It is not “hypocrisy” for him to do this. Indeed, he knows whereof he speaks, and has a perfect right to say something when he sees a problem developing, whose outcome he has already experienced.

Well see I disagree with you. I don’t think anyone has a right to judge anyone. And no offense but okay you go to confession and you confess your sin. But then what? I mean think about it? If you are going to confess, sin, confess. sin. why bother.

When I go to confession I confess my sin, and I don’t just repent and move on. Usually if we have to confess a sin its a constant struggle. We have to CHANGE. Thats hard, and it does not happen over night. How many of you have confessed a sin and then it was forgiven and can say you never sinned again? Very few I am sure.

Do you guys not see what God is telling us here. Can you
people not see we are ALL the RICH MAN.

We all have sins, and I can not see where he is any worse than any of us.

Oh and by the way, I am sure that he did not see his sin to be that bad either. Do you really think if he did, he would have kept doing it. Like I said why did he want to warn his brothers. Because he did not see it. And knows they probally won’t either.

Is that not pure Love. What could he gain? Nothing thats what. He knew he was going to pay, but he wanted his brothers to have it easier. I am sure he said the same thing to, I know I was not a perfect saint!

 

[Mickey]

Actually, he was sorry that he ended up in Hell. If he had been sorry during his lifetime about how he had treated Lazarus, he would have remedied the situation at that time, instead of dying in his sins.

Yes, jmcrae. I keep reading your post because it describes the situation in a nutshell. This parable is a lesson to us not to find ourselves in the situation of the rich man. Let us repent while we can. Let us enjoy the fruits of paradise like Lazarus. It is too late for the rich man. And now he pities himself. And because his lifestyle scandalized his brothers, he wants to warn them–but it will not be granted. The rich man cannot repent. His fate is sealed.

This parable is a great lesson for us all.

 

[rinnie]

You are right Mickey he was sorry. And all we have in the end is to rely on the Mercy of Christ. ANd that is what the Man got. Gods mercy. That is in 1 Cor 3:15 Paul writes he himself will be saved but only through fire.

Quote During the time moreover which intervenes between a mans death and final resurrection the soul dwells in a hidden retreat. where it ENJOYS REST OR SUFFERS AFFLICTION JUST IN protortion to the merit it has earned by the fire which it led on earth. Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 A.D. 426 Unquote

Jude 1:23 the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire.

Paradise in hebrew means Sheol. Meant the realm of the righteous dead.

Heb.12:23 The spirits of just men who died in godliness are MADE PERFECT. They are made perfect after death. Those who are perfect are in heaven, hell can not be made perfect. these spirits are in Purgatory.

Matt Jesus says be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. We are only made perfect through purification in the Catholic teaching this pruification IF NOT completed on earth is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Rev nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God.

I could go on for hours.

 

[Mickey]

Actually, he was sorry that he ended up in Hell. If he had been sorry during his lifetime about how he had treated Lazarus, he would have remedied the situation at that time, instead of dying in his sins.

Yes, jmcrae. I keep reading your post because it describes the situation in a nutshell. This parable is a lesson to us not to find ourselves in the situation of the rich man. Let us repent while we can. Let us enjoy the fruits of paradise like Lazarus. It is too late for the rich man. And now he pities himself. And because his lifestyle scandalized his brothers, he wants to warn them–but it will not be granted. The rich man cannot repent. His fate is sealed.

This parable is a great lesson for us all.

 

[rinnie]

Tell me Mickey if the rich man was in hell why does it not say hell. it says Hades, and Sheol are ancient terms for the shadowy underworld the abode of the dead where suffering takes place.

Hades was a place of suffering or waiting. Kinda adds up huh. Again Abraham was in Hades, so was the rich man. Same place.

Tell me Mickey, what was the word of Hell in the OT. It was not hades or Sheol but it did have another name. What was it?

 

[jmcrae]

Well see I disagree with you. I don’t think anyone has a right to judge anyone. And no offense but okay you go to confession and you confess your sin. But then what? I mean think about it? If you are going to confess, sin, confess. sin. why bother.

You are right. It is not a good Confession, if we don’t mean to change our ways.

When I go to confession I confess my sin, and I don’t just repent and move on.

To “repent” is to change direction - to stop doing the bad action, and replace it with its opposite good.

Usually if we have to confess a sin its a constant struggle. We have to CHANGE. Thats hard, and it does not happen over night. How many of you have confessed a sin and then it was forgiven and can say you never sinned again? Very few I am sure.

Do you guys not see what God is telling us here. Can you
people not see we are ALL the RICH MAN.

YES, now you are getting it! We could all end up in Hell, just like him, if we don’t repent of our ways and start helping those who are less fortunate than us.

We all have sins, and I can not see where he is any worse than any of us.

He was worse because he never repented - he never recognized his sins and repented of them.

Oh and by the way, I am sure that he did not see his sin to be that bad either.

Nobody ever does, really. Ricardo Montalban, speaking about the villain Khan, once said that Khan did not see himself as a villian - he saw himself as a good man who was forced to do villianous things. But he did not understand that, in doing villainous things, he was turning himself into a villain - he became a villian by doing villianous things. He started out as a loving husband and father, but when he set out to get revenge for the deaths of his wife and children, he became a villian. Ultimately, he was destroyed by his own evil.

The sad thing is that he had the opportunity to become a Saint - a good guy - simply by responding differently, and more generously, to the situation in which he found himself.

All of us are in that situation. We are all faced with choices, in which one way leads to Hell, and the other way leads to Heaven. It is our little everyday choices that lead us to our final destiny.