Lazarus and the Rich Man

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Sir_Knight said:
You have failed to recognize the Catholic teaching of purgatory. Are you a protestant?
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I am not discussing the legitimacy of the RC doctrine of purgatory. Take it to the relevant thread. I am discussing the parable.

You say that the rich man is in purgatory (as you understand the doctrine). Which means that you say he is bound for heaven.

I say he is condemned. You have no proof for your position. It sounds like sola Scriptura!
 
Sir_Knight said:
Popes in the past has supported the concept of Limbo and then future Popes have rejected it.
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Now you are reaching.
Sir_Knight said:
A Pope is only infallible when speaking from the chair of Peter. A true Cathoic would know this.
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LOL!!! I am rolling on the floor. You are saying that your teaching is correct and Pope John Paul II is wrong–one of the greatest theologians of modern times. You’re killin’ me! :rotfl:
 
Here’s another one for you–even though you already discounted Pope John Paul II.

**Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
 
Here is one from a Latin Catholic priest on EWTN’s website:

The rich man was condemned to hell**, not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done. “I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink… Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, naked, homeless, sick or imprisoned?.. As long as you did not do this to the least of my brothers, you did not do it to me… These will go to eternal damnation, while the just to eternal life” (cf. Mt 25:31-46).**
Fr Sebastian Vazhakala, M.C.
**Co-founder and Superior General of the Missionaries of Charity – Contemplative of Mother Teresa of **Calcutta
ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM
 
I don’t think that you can use the story of Lazarus as a proof of purgatory. It could easily be a discussion of heaven and hell.
But more to the point, is there any official Catholic document that describes when prugatory came into existance. was it only after heaven was available with Jesus’s sacrifice or could it have been in effect the holding place prior to that as well. In this case, Lazarus could have been in Purgatory but the Rich man may or may not have been.
 
paul_c said:
I don’t think that you can use the story of Lazarus as a proof of purgatory. It could easily be a discussion of heaven and hell.
But more to the point, is there any official Catholic document that describes when prugatory came into existance. was it only after heaven was available with Jesus’s sacrifice or could it have been in effect the holding place prior to that as well. In this case, Lazarus could have been in Purgatory but the Rich man may or may not have been.
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I do not understand what you are saying? Lazarus could have been, but the rich man may or may not have been. Is this not the reason this thread was started to PROVE purgatory does EXIST?
 
paul_c said:
I don’t think that you can use the story of Lazarus as a proof of purgatory. It could easily be a discussion of heaven and hell.
But more to the point, is there any official Catholic document that describes when prugatory came into existance. was it only after heaven was available with Jesus’s sacrifice or could it have been in effect the holding place prior to that as well. In this case, Lazarus could have been in Purgatory but the Rich man may or may not have been.
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Again we see the Rich man showing Mercy for his brothers. THere is no way you can say for sure that the rich man was not showing mercy. But Mercy is a Grace from God and you cannot deny that asking someone to go and save your Brothers are not indeed showing Mercy. If you can show proof that indeed without a shadow of a doubt it was not showing mercy, please go on and do so. I know that showing compassion for someone other than yourself for whatever reason is still showing Mercy, and it is a grace from God. Grace from God does not happen in hell.
 
Mickey said:
Today’s Gospel offers the parable of the “rich man” and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19**-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed****, **Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
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This doesn’t conclude the rich man is in hell for all eternity. Purgatory can be very unpleasant too.

That’s why I posted Spe Salvi vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

It is NOT said that the rich man is in hell for all eternity from this encyclical. The parable is handled transitionally with Paul’s letter to the Corinthians. The 2 writings are not contradictory to each other but complementary.

Hell, sheol, gehenna, gahinnom, hades all terms I showed you several times in preious posts, had differing meanings for the abode of the dead. Hell had 2 componants in those links I gave you. One temporary and 1 permanent.The encyclical as you can see acknowledges Jewish understanding of these terms also.

New Advent describes Hell and its meanings pre and post ascension
newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

And the connection between the encyclical I mentioned and the Jewish understanding of hell and theological discussions of hell from New Advent above, coincide
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4704142&postcount=408

The rich man although a parable, and clearly a story told pre death resurrection and and asension of Jesus, could clearly be a place of purification until Jesus makes it possible for souls to even enter heaven after being purified.

This doesn’t deny the eternity of hell, or souls that can be there forever. But it doesn’t deny temporary torments of purgatory either. The Jewish understanding although they don’t call it purgatory fully agree that punishment and purification occur after death for some and for others they don’t go through such punishments.
 
paul_c said:
I don’t think that you can use the story of Lazarus as a proof of purgatory. It could easily be a discussion of heaven and hell.
But more to the point, is there any official Catholic document that describes when prugatory came into existance. was it only after heaven was available with Jesus’s sacrifice or could it have been in effect the holding place prior to that as well. In this case, Lazarus could have been in Purgatory but the Rich man may or may not have been.
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And again I do not see how it could be used for heaven in hell because people in hell never see the righteous. Unless you are saying that Abraham and Lazarus are in hell also.
 
steve_b said:
This doesn’t conclude the rich man is in hell for all eternity. Purgatory can be very unpleasant too.
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LOL!!! I am rolling again. So now you are saying that purgatory is “the netherworld of torments” and Pope John Paul II is agreeing with you. :rotfl:

Do you also intepret purgatory to be a place where the condemned go to? John Paul 2 says the rich man was condemned. Care to answer that one?
 
rinnie said:
I do not understand what you are saying? Lazarus could have been, but the rich man may or may not have been. Is this not the reason this thread was started to PROVE purgatory does EXIST?
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Rinnie, I believe wholeheartedly in Purgatory. My issue is that the church is unclear , at least to my knowledge, about whether purgatory existed prior to the the resurrection or whether there was yet a different holding arrangement for the souls of the dead.
 
steve_b said:
The rich man although a parable, and clearly a story told pre death resurrection and and asension of Jesus, could clearly be a place of purification.
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Not a chance Stevie. Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man was condemned. Lazarus could not help the rich man–the chasm could not be crossed. We cannot repent after we die.

It’s a done deal. Let us pray that we do not find ourselves in the situation of the rich man.
 
Mickey said:
Here is one from a Latin Catholic priest on EWTN’s website:

The rich man was condemned to hell**,** not for the evils he committed, the lies he told, the blasphemies and bad words he uttered, but for failing to do what he should have done. “I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink… Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, naked, homeless, sick or imprisoned?.. As long as you did not do this to the least of my brothers, you did not do it to me… These will go to eternal damnation, while the just to eternal life” (cf. Mt 25:31-46).
Fr Sebastian Vazhakala, M.C.
**Co-founder and Superior General of the Missionaries of Charity – Contemplative of Mother Teresa of **Calcutta
[ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM](http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/JP2ANMTR.HTM)
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Patrick Madrid, host of Q & A for Catholic Answers live, the radio portion of C.A. is also editor of Envoy magazine. He believes it’s an example of purgatory also, and why he thinks so

[envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm](http://www.envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm) The previous papal encyclical I posted (Spe Salvi) doesn’t close the door on that understanding either.
 
Okay. One thing has been settled. There are some obstinate RC’S here who refuse to accept the teachings of Pope JP2. Let us now look at St John Chrysostom. Do y’all think you know better than him also? Here we go. One at a time please:

In the same way reason with yourself concerning the rich and the avaricious. Robbers lie in wait in the way and plunder travellers, and hide the wealth of others in their own lurking-places----in caves or dens. Do not, therefore, think them happy on account of the present, but miserable on account of the future----on account of the fearful judgment, the inevitable account to be rendered----the outer darkness which will envelop them. Even though robbers often escape the hand of men, yet, notwithstanding though we know this, we deprecate for ourselves such a life as theirs, or even for our enemies we should deprecate such an accursed prosperity. Yet with respect to God such a thing cannot be said. No one can escape His judgment, but all who in any way live in covetousness and rapine will undergo the punishment allotted by Him**----that deathless punishment which has no end,----in the same way as also did this rich man.**
St John** Chrysostom (on Lazarus and the Rich Man)**
 
paul_c said:
Rinnie, I believe wholeheartedly in Purgatory. My issue is that the church is unclear , at least to my knowledge, about whether purgatory existed prior to the the resurrection or whether there was yet a different holding arrangement for the souls of the dead.
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I understand what you are saying Paul but Pope Benedict agrees it very well could be. ANd what I am saying is there is more proof that they are then are not.😃

My point goes back to of course Mercy, and them seeing eachother and then this is what i really think can tie it into gether more than not.

Hades in the Ot again are terms for the underworld the abode of the dead where suffering takes place. And the OT believed to pray for the dead, and believed that it was the final cleansing place.

Purgatory of today is still abode of the dead where suffering takes place and is a final cleansing place. And we are told to pray our loved ones out of purgatory.👍
 
Mickey said:
LOL!!! I am rolling again. So now you are saying that purgatory is “the netherworld of torments” and Pope John Paul II is agreeing with you. :rotfl:
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Read the link you provided again.

Who gave the statement?
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mickey:
Do you also intepret purgatory to be a place where the condemned go to? John Paul 2 says the rich man was condemned. Care to answer that one?
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JPII didn’t say it.
 
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