Lazarus and the Rich Man

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rinnie said:
A new stage of the Churchs teaching was brought about by the dogmatic bull Bendictus Deus whch Pope Benddict XII promulgated on 29 January 1336. In this bull the Pope taught that in the time after Christ’s passion death and ascension into heaven the souls of those departed persons who stand in no further need of purification do no have to linger in the INTERMEDIATE STATE.

The intermediate State back then was called Hades, Where the dead waited resurrection.😃

I knew I would find it and tie it into Lazarus and the rich man!

Pope John Paul ll calls the Treasury of Souls, or WAITING beneath the throne of God AND the throne of God and of the just and especially martyrs being received into Abrahams Bosom, the thought of tarryng of souls beneath the throne of God all these are Present in the NT TRADITION.

In Lazarus and the rich man Lazarus was received into the Bosom of Abraham. ( intermediate State, now Purgatory.)

I knew it, the only different is When Jesus came he opened heaven and the Souls could be released.
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This is where I said Pope benedict made the connection. And used the Parable to make it. Now I asked you to show me where my making this connection goes against the teachings of Pope John Paul II and how seeing how this connection can be made goes against my Church.

Where did Pope John Paul II ever state either way. Where did he say that this parable was not where we could connect Purgatory to Bosom Of Abraham. THats what I said.
 
rinnie said:
This is where I said Pope benedict made the connection.
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And I informed you that you are wrong. Pope Benedict XII does not make a purgatorial connection to the parable and you cannot force it to be so.

Pope John Paul II is very clear what is happeneing in the parable. But you are in denial. 🤷
 
Then why did he say that after Jesus rose the souls no longer in need of purification needed to linger?
 
Mickey said:
It’s a parable rinnie! A parable!

Where did the good thief go after he repented on the cross?

Paradise! Heaven! The Bosom of Abraham!
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your gonna love this one. Paradise it opens up in Jesus. Jesus does not come from the bosom of Abraham he comes from the Father himself.

Jesus himself is paradise, light, fresh water, the secure peace which human longing and hope are directed.

The pope connects it to the image of bosom which we find in Johns Gospel.

The Christian in his faith and love finds shelter on the breast of Jesus and so in the end on the breast of the Father.

Don’t even start on me Mickey. Thats what it says. And if the Pope tells me I BELIEVE.
 
rinnie said:
your gonna love this one. Paradise it opens up in Jesus. Jesus does not come from the bosom of Abraham he comes from the Father himself.

Jesus himself is paradise, light, fresh water, the secure peace which human longing and hope are directed.

The pope connects it to the image of bosom which we find in Johns Gospel.

The Christian in his faith and love finds shelter on the breast of Jesus and so in the end on the breast of the Father.
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None of this has anything to do with the parable proving purgatory. 🤷
 
Mathew 8:11
And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven:****
 
Mickey said:
It’s a parable rinnie! A parable!

Where did the good thief go after he repented on the cross?

Paradise! Heaven! The Bosom of Abraham!
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Depends on the translation AND where one puts the comma

Scenerio’s of Lk 23:43

  1. *]And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
    *]And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
    What a difference a comma makes.

    But you ask, Where did Jesus go immediately after death but before the resurrection?

    Remember on the 3rd day, at the resurrection Jesus told Mary Magdelain, outside the tomb, don’t hold on to me, I haven’t yet ascended to the Father? Where has He been? Where has the thief been?

    1 Peter 3:
    18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God
 
steve_b said:
1 Peter 3:
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God
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Does this tell us that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man proves the exsistence of purgatory. No. But they are beautiful verses nonetheless. Thank you for posting them. Let us read Pope John Paul II once again.

…Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
 
The Hand of God is the place of those souls that depart from this life in the grace of God after having done penance for their sins. For so says Sacred Scripture: “But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment (of death) shall not touch them.” Their place is also called “Paradise”, as Christ himself the Lord says to the thief on the cross: “Amen I say to you, this day you shall be with me in paradise.” Their place is also called the “Bosom of Abraham”.

Finally, it is known as the “Kingdom of heaven”, even as Christ the Lord taught: “And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” And so, one will not err if he calls this place by any of the above names, as long as he knows that the souls are in the grace of God and the kingdom of heaven, and just as the church hymns repeatedly sing„ “and in heaven”.
(From Peter Moghila’s Orthodox Confession of Faith)
 
Mickey said:
Does this tell us that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man proves the exsistence of purgatory. No. But they are beautiful verses nonetheless. Thank you for posting them. Let us read Pope John Paul II once again.

…Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
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Why do you avoid this question. Where was Lazarus being carried away from. Where was Abraham. I know I know I just made it to the ignore list again.😃
 
rinnie said:
Where was Lazarus being carried away from.
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This has been answered 100 times. Are you okay rinnie?

Read the parable.
Lazarus died and was carried away by angels to the Bosom of Abraham. Pope John Paul II calls this heaven.
**
Please do not make me write it again.
Ps 91:11-12
For he hath given his angels charge over thee; to keep thee in all thy ways. In their hands they shall bear thee up: lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
 
Mickey, as luck would have it, I was reading Pope Benedict’s " Spe Salvi - Saved in Hope" tonight and it actually references this parable. Here’s what he has to say in paragraphs 44 and 45:
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found, inter alia, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.
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  1. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.
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If you want to verify it for yourself, here is the link :vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
 
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