Lazarus and the Rich Man

[Mickey]

The dead in Purgatory are “expiating their sins”.

I think there is a semantics issue here. I was always taught as a Roman Catholic that we are expiated of our sins by the fires of purgatory. It is not something we do in and of ourselves such as performing works of penance.

New Advent states it like this:

Gregory [Dial. iv, 39] and Augustine [De vera et falsa poenit. iv, xviii, by some other author] say that certain slight sins will be remitted in the life to come. Nor can this be understood of the punishment: because thus all sins, however grave they be, are **expiated by the fire of **Purgatory, as regards the debt of punishment. Therefore venial sins are **cleansed by the fire of **Purgatory as to their guilt.
Further, wood, hay, stubble (1 Corinthians 3:12) denote venial sins, as we have said (I-II, 89, 2). Now wood, hay, stubble are consumed in Purgatory. Therefore venial sins are remitted after this life.
newadvent.org/summa/6002.htm

 

[Mickey]

Therefore, there is no contradiction between JPII and Benedict XVI view.

LOL! Now you are JP2’s interpreter also!

JP2 indicates heaven and hell. And the patristic understanding is very much in line with that.Benedict makes no indication that the parable is referencing purgatory. It’s quite simple.

The first half of this thread you were trying to prove that the rich man was in purgatory and was repenting for his life of sin. When that did not work you began trying to prove poor Lazarus was in purgatory. Wait…don’t tell me…they’re both in purgatory!

 

[Mickey]

Jews believe in purgatory as well.

I know a number of knowledgeable Jews and believe me…they do not believe in purgatory.

 

[paul_c]

I think there is a semantics issue here. I was always taught as a Roman Catholic that we are expiated of our sins by the fires of purgatory. It is not something we do in and of ourselves such as performing works of penance.

New Advent states it like this:

Gregory [Dial. iv, 39] and Augustine [De vera et falsa poenit. iv, xviii, by some other author] say that certain slight sins will be remitted in the life to come. Nor can this be understood of the punishment: because thus all sins, however grave they be, are **expiated by the fire of **Purgatory, as regards the debt of punishment. Therefore venial sins are **cleansed by the fire of **Purgatory as to their guilt.
Further, wood, hay, stubble (1 Corinthians 3:12) denote venial sins, as we have said (I-II, 89, 2). Now wood, hay, stubble are consumed in Purgatory. Therefore venial sins are remitted after this life.
newadvent.org/summa/6002.htm

Being cleansed in fire is certainly pennance. You seem to think of pennance as being defined by the sinner. In actuallity, this is not normally the case. It is the agreeved that defines the recompense. In the sacrament of reconciliation, it is the priest that defines the pennance, not the penitent…

 

[Mickey]

Being cleansed in fire is certainly pennance. You seem to think of pennance as being defined by the sinner. In actuallity, this is not normally the case. It is the agreeved that defines the recompense. In the sacrament of reconciliation, it is the priest that defines the pennance, not the penitent…

Penance is defined by the priest after a confession is made as something that the penitent satisfies. Also, penance can be the sacrament of reconciation itself. The RCC teaches that we cannot participate in the sacraments after death. Does it teach that we can perform acts of penance in purgatory? I do not think so.

 

[paul_c]

Penance is defined by the priest after a confession is made as something that the penitent satisfies. Also, penance can be the sacrament of reconciation itself. The RCC teaches that we cannot participate in the sacraments after death. Does it teach that we can perform acts of penance in purgatory? I do not think so.

You are confusing the act of penance with the sacrament of penance. The entire purpose of Purgatory is to do acts of penance to become purified (expiation of sins)…

 

[Mickey]

You are confusing the act of penance with the sacrament of penance. The entire purpose of Purgatory is to do acts of penance to become purified (expiation of sins)…

I said there is a dual meaning. Obviously, the Sacrament is not being discussed. But you are saying that the bodiless souls in purgatory can do penance?

 

[steve_b]

I know a number of knowledgeable Jews and believe me…they do not believe in purgatory.

As I said they don’t call it that. But they (the Orthodox Jews) believe in a purification process after death but before heaven. I quoted their Jewish encyclopedia.

 

[paul_c]

I said there is a dual meaning. Obviously, the Sacrament is not being discussed. But you are saying that the bodiless souls in purgatory can do penance?

yes, it doesn’t have to be physical…

 

[Mickey]

yes, it doesn’t have to be physical…

Fair enough Paul–if that is what you believe. This thread has gone way off course from the parable and back into the doctrine of purgatory…and since I do not accept the doctrine…I will bow out of this one.

 

[steve_b]

Benedict makes no indication that the parable is referencing purgatory. It’s quite simple.

I quoted Benedict making the connection.

mickey:

The first half of this thread you were trying to prove that the rich man was in purgatory and was repenting for his life of sin. When that did not work you began trying to prove poor Lazarus was in purgatory. Wait…don’t tell me…they’re both in purgatory!

I showed the Jewish understanding of purification took into account gehinnom. A temporary NOT a permanent state. And that the state could inflict torment. That’s THEIR understanding, and I quoted their Jewish encyclopedia with the link. But you ignored the reference.

I said NOTHING about Lazarus other than he was in the bosom of Abraham.

 

[Mickey]

I showed the Jewish understanding of purification took into account gehinnom. A temporary NOT a permanent state. And that the state could inflict torment. That’s THEIR understanding, and I quoted their Jewish encyclopedia with the link. But you ignored the reference.

That’s fine. I’ll hook you up with my Jewish friends some day and you all can have a great discussion!

I said NOTHING about Lazarus other than he was in the bosom of Abraham.

Yes. Lazarus went to the Bosom of Abraham…paradise… heaven. And the rich man was condemned. That is what the parable tells us amongst many other things.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Actually no - it is we who do penance, on their behalf, when we collect Indulgences for them. It is by means of our penances that we do on their behalf, that they are purified. They cannot do their own penances in Purgatory.

That’s why we have Indulgences.

**
Hi Jmcrae,
You are sooooo right. Paul c, has a misunderstanding of the "process of: purgatory.It isn’t a real physical place it is a “drive through” cleaning place enroute to Heaven. As the process is going on the wage of all our sins afre washed off our souls sothat we can kneel at the feet of God. The rich man was in Hell! (I love the OP! )

God Bless**

 

[Mickey]

But you ignored the reference.

Indeed. And you can save your effort, because your Jewish references are meaningless to me and do not show in the least that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is pointing to the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

 

[Mickey]

The rich man was in Hell! (I love the OP! )

 

[steve_b]

Indeed. And you can save your effort, because your Jewish references are meaningless to me and do not show in the least that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is pointing to the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

The pope acknowledges the Jewish understanding even if you think it’s meaningless. Afterall, the Church in the beginning WAS 100% Jewish.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The pope acknowledges the Jewish understanding even if you think it’s meaningless. Afterall, the Church in the beginning WAS 100% Jewish.

**
Hi steve,

f I wasn’t Catholic, I would have to be Jewish. That is where our knowledge of God came from originally, He used the Jewish faith to show us His truth. He sent his son to get the Jewish faith back on the road to salvation and they rejected Him. Just Like the rich man rejected God while Lazarus accepted Him! {Hey, II know it was weak! But, I had to get the OP in here somehow! }. **

 

[paul_c]

**
Hi Jmcrae,
You are sooooo right. Paul c, has a misunderstanding of the "process of: purgatory.It isn’t a real physical place it is a “drive through” cleaning place enroute to Heaven. As the process is going on the wage of all our sins afre washed off our souls sothat we can kneel at the feet of God. The rich man was in Hell! (I love the OP! )

God Bless**

Are you sure about the process of Purgatory. The catechism says people are expiating (atoning) for their sins in Purgatory. It further says that the lving and in fact the dead in Purgatory and in Heaven can reduce the atonement that is required of those in Purgatory through their prayers and indulgences.
Here’s the reference:

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

I don’t see any references to a drive through cleansing, I see “more promptly purified of the PUNISHMENT for sin”. Do you have another reference that supports your position, I’d be interested in seeing it. If I am wrong, I’ll be happy to admit it.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Are you sure about the process of Purgatory.
**
Hi paulc,

Of course I am sure!

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory** to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire…”
Paragraphs 1030-1, CCC.

The catechism says people are expiating (atoning) for their sins in Purgatory. It further says that the lving and in fact the dead in Purgatory and in Heaven can reduce the atonement that is required of those in Purgatory through their prayers and indulgences.

I agree with that all except the with “IN” purgatory

The church believes that the terms of those undergoing Purgatory (known as the ‘Holy Souls’) may be shortened in two ways:

By praying for them (including saying the Rosary) and thus obtaining an Indulgence*. Also, on 2 November, the church sets aside a special day (‘All Souls Day’) to remember those who have died and are now in Purgatory.
By offering a Mass on their behalf (Recall the fact that the Mass is seen as a sacrifice for sin, effective not only for the living, but also for the dead).

I don’t see any references to a drive through cleansing,

**Remember Paul, an analogue is not the same thing as the same thing. It was as close as I could come with my limited intelligence! **

I see “more promptly purified of the PUNISHMENT for sin”. Do you have another reference that supports your position, I’d be interested in seeing it.
**
Don’t I always Paul

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY
Pope John Paul II**
In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, **Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language.**B] This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

**
“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]**

If I am wrong, I’ll be happy to admit it.

God Bless

 

[Mickey]

The pope acknowledges the Jewish understanding even if you think it’s meaningless.

Of course. And that understanding is** NOT** telling us that the parable is about purgatory. In fact, the Jewish understanding had nothing to do with purgatory.