M
Mickey
Guest
There is usually a consensus–and it holds great weight.
Yes. I was explaining to kempston that there are often literal and mysterious meanings to Scripture–including parables.
- Status
M
Mickey
Guest
Ah, now we are back on track. Very few Latin Catholics agree with you here—including all Eastern Catholic clergy that I know. I am willing to make a wild guess that Pope Benedict also does not think it is speaking to purgatory. Why do you insist on this interpretation? Is it your pride that prevents you from admitting that you are wrong? Have you asked your priest yet?
E
estesbob
Guest
Why would it matter?
M
Mickey
Guest
In the same way reason with yourself concerning the rich and the avaricious. Robbers lie in wait in the way and plunder travellers, and hide the wealth of others in their own lurking-places----in caves or dens. Do not, therefore, think them happy on account of the present, but miserable on account of the future----on account of the fearful judgment, the inevitable account to be rendered----the outer darkness which will envelop them. Even though robbers often escape the hand of men, yet, notwithstanding though we know this, we deprecate for ourselves such a life as theirs, or even for our enemies we should deprecate such an accursed prosperity. Yet with respect to God such a thing cannot be said. No one can escape His judgment, but all who in any way live in covetousness and rapine will undergo the punishment allotted by Him----that deathless punishment which has no end,----in the same way as also did this rich man.
St John Chrysostom (on Lazarus and the Rich Man)
St John Chrysostom (on Lazarus and the Rich Man)
M
Mickey
Guest
Why would what matter?
R
rinnie
Guest
Sorry that does not add up when you compare it to the teaching of the RCC.Thank you Chaldean. This is it!
Qutoe: CCC All who die in Gods grace and friendship but STILL IMPERFECTLY purified are indeed ASSURED of their eternal salvation, BUT AFTER DEATH they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. Unquote
Now common sense, how can you be un-holy. The only way is to have sin, no other way to see it. If you are completely free from sin you are Holy. Case closed.
1031 CCC The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect which is entirely DIFFERENT from the punishment of the damned.
That is why we pray for the dead. Because if when we die, we either go to heaven or hell what would the purpose of prayers be for. If you are in hell, you totally reject Christ and want nothing to do with him. No one can pray you out of hell. And if you are in heaven you are in total bliss. What are we praying for?
Now since Mickey refuses to answer my question. Would anyone else like to take a stab at it.
Why did Jesus go to Hell for 3 days and why?
L
LionHeart777
Guest
I had always understood it to mean that the rich man was in hell, but I’m a protestant
R
rinnie
Guest
You are not completely wrong, but you are not right either. Think about what I asked Mickey?
C
Chaldean_Rite
Guest
very few of the ECF I believe have touched this topic. My guess is since the gates of Heaven were closed, Christ freed those just from the underworld (Hades). I think St. John Chyrostom said to chain the devil to Hell eternally. I don’t know.
M
Mickey
Guest
Still it came to pass that a man living in wickedness and inhumanity enjoyed every kind of good fortune, and a just and virtuous man lingered in the greatest ills. For that Lazarus was a just man is made plain, as in the other case, by his end, and even before his end, by his patience and poverty. Do you not, indeed, seem to see these things present before our eyes? The ship of the rich man was laden with merchandise, and sailed with a fair wind. But do not marvel; for it was borne on to shipwreck, since he was not willing to bestow its burden wisely. Would you that I should give another proof of his wickedness? It is his living in luxury every day without fear. **For this in truth is the height of wickedness; **and not only now, (in this dispensation,) when we are required to show such moderation, but even in the beginning, under the old covenant, when there was no revelation of the need of this self-control. For hear what the prophet says: “Woe to them that come to an evil day, that come near, and that make a Sabbath of lies,” (Amos vi. 3, LXX.)
St John Chrysostom
St John Chrysostom
M
Mickey
Guest
Please answer on the purgatory thread unless it is related to the parable of discussion.
M
Mickey
Guest
Thank you.
M
Mickey
Guest
Thank you.
C
ckempston
Guest
I’m sorry, but I would argue that you are incorrect.
There is usually a consensus–and it holds great weight.
Yes. I was explaining to kempston that there are often literal and mysterious meanings to Scripture–including parables.
Jesus explains his parables in several places. Every time he does, he gives an allegorical meaning, and not a literal one.
The earliest Fathers of the Church, in interpreting parables, did so allegorically.
M
Mickey
Guest
The rich ,an’s soul was full of sores as Lazarus’ body. His soul was a true image of Lazarus’ body, and Lazarus’ body was a true image of his soul. God thus placed two men on earth to be a mirror the one one of the other: one in the mansion and the other at its gate. The rich man’s outward splendour mirrored Lazarus’inner state, and Lazarus’ outward suppurating sores mirrored the rich man’s inner state.
St Nicholai Velimirovich
St Nicholai Velimirovich
M
Mickey
Guest
You would be arguing incorrectly. There is often a literal interpretation–as in the verses we are discussing.
N
Nita
Guest
?? Why
It certainly isn’t necessary (except for what’s in the LOH, Office of Readings, which some are obligated to pray daily).
I was reading and hearing Scripture long before I even knew there were writings available by the Church Fathers. You too, I’d guess - unless you were a late starter when it came to reading Scripture.
Learning the doctrines of the Church has been of far greater value and help when it has come to reading Scripture, grasping it’s content, and being “awed” by it.
God bless,
Nita
R
rinnie
Guest
Yes Jesus opened up Heaven. You are correct. Remember Jesus died to free us from our sin, and to take away death. In the OT there was only Death. Hades also meant death in the OT.
Now when Jesus went to Hades, He did free the just. You are corrected but Jesus judged them did he not. There is nothing that said the rich man was condemmed to hell. How could he have been, Jesus went to judge, and correct he did indeed free the just. But who is to say if he had Mercy on the rich man. What does Jesus tell us, I will extend the same Mercy as you do on others. How could the rich man be in hell if he had not been judged by CHrist yet?
Yes he was suffering, and paying for his sin.
According to the CCC
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell for this a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is NECESSARY. and persistence in it until the end.
Sorry I do not see the rich man willfully turning away from God. I see him repenting. I see him in venial sin. He did not refuse Lazarus because he rejected God. Did he sin, by not helping him, yes he sinned but the only way I was told that God would not have mercy on you and not forgive you a sin is 2 things. To not believe, and to not be truely sorry and not repent your sin.
That is why the rich man was in purgatory, he was repenting his sin, and had a chance of Gods mercy.
That is why you will never hear a Roman Catholic judge anyone and say they are going to hell. We believe in Gods Mercy. And we confess our sins and do the best we can.
As for certain lesser faults CCC We must believe that before the final judgment there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the HS will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
E
estesbob
Guest
Whether this parable was refering to purgatory.
M
Mickey
Guest
I’ll go off track one final time with you. I read Sacred Scripture in conjunction with Sacred Tradition. The writings of the Church Fathers are part of the Sacred Tradition. These writings assist us in the interpretations of the Sacred Scriptures. Okay?It certainly isn’t necessary (except for what’s in the LOH, Office of Readings, which some are obligated to pray daily).
I was reading and hearing Scripture long before I even knew there were writings available by the Church Fathers. You too, I’d guess - unless you were a late starter when it came to reading Scripture.
Learning the doctrines of the Church has been of far greater value and help when it has come to reading Scripture, grasping it’s content, and being “awed” by it
Yes, Holy Orthodoxy has her daily prayers and menanion, triodion, pentecostarion, etc.–the prayers are beautiful.
One learns the doctrines of the Church as one’s journey progresses. But of course, you have a few extra doctrines than I. (Sorry, just couldn’t resist).
- Status