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Mickey
Guest
Let me make it easier for you by letting Pope John Paul II speak:
…Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
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…Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
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Mickey
Guest
It is a parable rinnie. Do you understand what a parable means? It is talking about heaven and hell. It is talking about the rich man’s evil deeds and his inability to repent after he dies. It is talking about Lazarus’ virtues. The parable is telling us many things… but it is not explaining purgatory.
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rinnie
Guest
I am sorry Mickey that is your Opinion. The Pope differs with you. He said there are many teachings to parables. And this parable ties the OT into the NT. And that is the Purifying fires spoken of also in the NT. I told you a Parable is for teaching. And not just one teaching, Many teachings.It is a parable rinnie. Do you understand what a parable means? It is talking about heaven and hell. It is talking about the rich man’s evil deeds and his inability to repent after he dies. It is talking about Lazarus’ virtues. The parable is telling us many things… but it is not explaining purgatory.
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Mickey
Guest
It is the opinion of Holy Tradition.
The Pope is in agreement with Holy Tradition and I am in agreement with Holy Tradition…so I am in agreement with Pope John Paul II.
This parable says nothing about putifying fires. You made that up.
Amen. And one of those teachings is** NOT** the RC doctrine of purgatory.
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paul_c
Guest
You can’t repent after death, agreed. But you can clearly do pennance, that is the whole point of Purgatory.Wrong. Nothing you have quoted states your exception. The Church teaches that those still alive can pray for the dead and that sins can be forgiven, but it most certainly does not say that you can repent and** do pennance **after you have died. No other Catholic here (except perhaps rinnie) would agree with you.
CCC
[393](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/393.htm’)
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Purification is pennance in this construct.
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Mickey
Guest
Correct.
The whole point of the doctrine of purgatory is purification. Can you offer a source that equates purification with the reposed soul doing pennance?
I never heard that before.
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rinnie
Guest
Then why can you not prove to me that the OT and the NT of a waiting and cleansing place does not exist.It is the opinion of Holy Tradition.
The Pope is in agreement with Holy Tradition and I am in agreement with Holy Tradition…so I am in agreement with Pope John Paul II.
This parable says nothing about putifying fires. You made that up.
Amen. And one of those teachings is** NOT** the RC doctrine of purgatory.
In the OT hades was a waiting and cleansing place. Show me that is incorrect.
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Mickey
Guest
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rinnie
Guest
I am sorry I mean Jesus went to release the souls from the Bosom of Abraham. This place of purification was a place of waiting and cleansing.
Boy you sure are quick on the draw when I mess up for a second. Lets see how quick you are now.
So again where does it say that the bosom of Abraham was not a place of waiting and cleansing. A place of Purification. And again where does it say that it cannot be tied into what we believe today to be purgatory?
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Mickey
Guest
You must prove that it is a cleansing station. Of which sins was Lazarus being cleansed?
How am I supposed to know that you do not mean what you write? Sheesh!
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rinnie
Guest
Easy go to the early teachings of the Church. Look up the bosom of Abraham. Then get back to me.
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Mickey
Guest
You look it up. The burden of proof is on** you.**
I have done the majority of the research on the Holy Fathers on this thread and you ignore it.
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rinnie
Guest
Okay Mickey the bosom of Abraham the place where the righteous await judgement day.
Purgatory where the righteous are still today but await heaven. Since Jesus had already came and made judgement.
It is still and waiting and cleansing place.
proof 2 macc 12:44-45 which shows specific prayers for the dead so that they may be forgiven for their sin,
Matt Jesus says be perfect as your heavenely Father was perfect. We are only made perfect through purfication and in Catholic teaching this purification if not done on this earth, is continued in a TRANSITIONAL STATE we call Purgatory.
Again the Transitional State was in the OT and we acknowledge it in the NT.
Transitional State OT bosom of Abraham. NT Purgatory. It was again an IN BETWEEN STATE.
We do agree there are levels of this state. But this state does indeed exist.
Purgatory where the righteous are still today but await heaven. Since Jesus had already came and made judgement.
It is still and waiting and cleansing place.
proof 2 macc 12:44-45 which shows specific prayers for the dead so that they may be forgiven for their sin,
Matt Jesus says be perfect as your heavenely Father was perfect. We are only made perfect through purfication and in Catholic teaching this purification if not done on this earth, is continued in a TRANSITIONAL STATE we call Purgatory.
Again the Transitional State was in the OT and we acknowledge it in the NT.
Transitional State OT bosom of Abraham. NT Purgatory. It was again an IN BETWEEN STATE.
We do agree there are levels of this state. But this state does indeed exist.
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steve_b
Guest
From an Orthodox Jewish site
type Gehinnom into the Jewish encyclopedia search line
jewfaq.org/search.htm
then look up “Gan Eden”
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paul_c
Guest
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Mickey, what do you suppose purification is, if not pennance?
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Mickey
Guest
First I repent, then I go to confession, and sometimes I am given a penance.
We cannot repent or confess after we repose. How do you suppose we can do penance?
I am still waiting for your proof.
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Mickey
Guest
Not proof. Prayers for the dead do not equal proof that Hades is a cleansing place or that it is the same as the RC doctrine of purgatory.
Theosis begins in this life and continues for eternity.
…Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments.
Pope John Paul II
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rinnie
Guest
Lazarus is carried away to heaven from where Mickey. Quit pretenting like you do not understand. Where was Abraham waiting at before Jesus opened up heaven?
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rinnie
Guest
And again the Pope does make the connection. I quoted you the proof. Now you quote me where he says that there was not a middle place.
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davidv
Guest
Whereever, or whatever it is - it is not clear that it is what the Church currently teaches as purgatory.
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